Building my first Harley one part at a time

[Tattooo]

By the time I have the frame.

Speaking of your frame I was wondering, what are your plans for painting it? Gloss, flat? A color other than black??????

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

There was this type of wrinkle bed liner I used on a 250R 3 wheeler frame ten years ago.
That shits still on there and looking mint so that is what I'll use.
Just need to remember the fucking earplugs in all the holes this time. I only use a color on a frame if I know what color the rest will be.
And on this I'm going to use all the sheet metal as I find it.

One day if I ever get the money I would like to build a paintless bike and use gun blue and oil on all the steel with brushed aluminum, maybe take that a step further and get reprop frame castings and braze it. I built a gun once that had bronze brazing with blued steel and it looked awesome

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

It was actually 12 years ago I rebuilt this. It took an entire engine and frame rebuild. I must of spent a week alone on that tank. I was only 18 at the time. And no we never did put brakes on it, at the time we could not find any.

[farmall]

The real question now is do I complete the engine or buy a tranny next payday.

For what specific coldly calculated pragmatic reasons are those the only choices?

Hurry is the enemy of efficient purchasing while waiting and saving offers more money to concentrate on-target. Spending more time searching offers a shot at more deals while accumulating more money, unless you really have some point in deliberately making noob errors.

Until you do a complete exploratory on the short block bottom end its true condition is only guesstimated not known. Skinning it out the rest of the way is wise for safety sake and the consumable parts will cost the same. A couple hours to pull the pump, split the cases and clean everything is just good sense and costs nothing.

After doing that ya can run the numbers by walking into the cop shop with the cases. If ya walk out without them all you lose is the cases.

If buying another engine I'd run its numbers first. Some gearboxes have pin-stamped numbers too, and don't forget to buy a splined-shaft late model Softail box for a chopper unless someone literally gives you the dogshit tapered shaft/non-Denso version.

While hunting parts and saving money if you don't find great parts deals yer cash pile for the frame grows larger and there is no functional need to buy all the bits in sequence. If ya find a screaming parts deal buy that first, if not ya can buy the frame which will be a "known good" purchase so a safe place for your money.

If you make a nearly complete parts list of what fits what you can plan most effectively. For example gearbox limits inner and outer primary options and clutch type. Spline gearbox lets you do cool stuff like use five speed Softail gearbox guts (the best of the five speeds) in an Evo Softail case.

Used starters are a good place to save money as Denso contact kits are dirt cheap.

A CV carb is a wise choice. Best intake for a custom is by far the Ram Jett one-piece, only available used. Any ignition will do for a stock-ish engine.

Never go shopping hungry and never marry what you can pimp.

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

Just saw this I'm going to buy it on payday $500. The guy put 0 info on his listing. I can get a kicker for it right?

What's the outside diameter and width of a evo stator. I build custom ignitions for lots of engines and would like to have a AC system that does not need a battery to run. This is fairly simple for me to do and would be cheaper since I have tons of shit for it. This would not be for performance just my personal opinion that no motorcycle should ever require a battery to run. Ive done it to more than a few engines before and the Dynatek pulser coil is perfect for this.

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

Screw it I'll split my cases and take a look, I just know I'm going to find something wrong in there. Before I get inside are there any oil passages to make sure are clear or widen out? (more than a few hondas badly needed this locking engines at high speed sucks). I'm not wanting an overly powerful engine when I'm done, in fact I was thinking about lowering the compression a bit if that's smart. Not just because I want to kick it, but because the fact this thing blew it's heads once. If I wanted to die I'd find me a 600 or 1000cc sportbike for way cheaper. Also with a light weight hardtail with a 5 speed even a slightly detuned EVO should be enough.

Also are is there anything I should change or look out for inside?

[JBinNC]

Screw it I'll split my cases and take a look, I just know I'm going to find something wrong in there. Before I get inside are there any oil passages to make sure are clear or widen out? (more than a few hondas badly needed this locking engines at high speed sucks). I'm not wanting an overly powerful engine when I'm done, in fact I was thinking about lowering the compression a bit if that's smart. Not just because I want to kick it, but because the fact this thing blew it's heads once. If I wanted to die I'd find me a 600 or 1000cc sportbike for way cheaper. Also with a light weight hardtail with a 5 speed even a slightly detuned EVO should be enough.

Also are is there anything I should change or look out for inside?

Motor:

Once the case halves are separated, the flywheel assembly must be pressed out of the drive side Timkens. A hydraulic press is best, but do it gently. There is a spacer between the Timkens to set the end play, don't lose it.

Have the flywheel assembly serviced by a competent shop. That is not something that you can do at home. (You can of course learn to do it, and amass the equipment to do so, but for a one-time job, it's not worth it.)

Look for cracks in the case as I advised earlier. The evo oiling system is a well sorted, known quantity and no changes are necessary. Do use a steel breather gear in place of the stock nylon one.

For easier starting and better performance, an Andrews EV-27 cam is THE choice for an otherwise stock motor. Use the Torrington/ Koyo cam bearing in place of the stock, terrible INA bearing. Replace the tappets with new ones, because the tappet rollers have a limited life span.

None of this is cheap, but will result in a motor that will run for a LONG time.

Jim

[farmall]

You can get a kicker for that Softail style box. Ultima and others offer them.It's a bitsa since it's got a black door (typical of stock boxes) with plain gearbox casting. I'd lift the cover and inspect the gears (especially the dogs) with a bright light. The top cover bolts are off for a reason.

Gearbox casting is aftermarket by the "please fill up the oil" sticker and unmachined hole for the speed sensor but that's no big deal. Someone probably removed a stock gearbox to install a six speed then tossed it into another case then chose not to use it, or bought a six speed complete then swapped internals.

https://www.jockeyjournal.com/thread...e-done.191857/ is interesting. I should have saved a Voltpak to removethe potting compound but had little reason to forty years ago.

Since those alternators are permanent magnet units persuading them to fire a points ignition at least shouldn't be too grim.

What circuitry do you plan to use? Dead stators you could rewind should be free if anyone has them lying around and rebuilders and online suppliers have wire etc cheep.

Figure out a way to produce conversion parts for batteryless operation and you could sell shitloads of them before Chinesium copies came out. That could be a nice side business!

I always found it odd that the Lucas permanent magnet alternators could get by with a starting cap (battery still has advantages) on points ignitions but HD owners rarely ran them. (I'd no personal reason to ditch the advantages of batteries on any machine and the old trick of a little Honda battery used in HD choppers worked nicely for customer bikes.)

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

I should have been more clear about the electrical I intend on using. I do not intend on ditching the battery only making it redundant. This is the kind of stator i want to use. The timing rotors will work just fine and so will a stock flywheel (One with magnets harley guys call the crank flywheels and this is new to me). That pole that's different will supply AC power direct to a CDI of my choice. One of the wires out of the dynatek timmer will be grounded and the other to the cdi. This setup will allow me too (If I feel like it) To also run a secondary DC cdi from battery. (I used two with different curves once just for the fuck of it (one at a time)).

The wiring is stupid simple: Ground, AC or DC in, Coil, Timmer, Kill. I have used these systems on everything from 1950s outboards to a Yamaha R6 total loss system. And its cheap as hell. No more $450 mercury outboard CDI swaps I have saved countless people a lot of money doing this and even teach them how to do it again if it fails on them. In some cases I used adjustable curve CDIs.

Now the bad part (There is always one) The CDIs do not have perfect QC, but seeing as they are about the price of a set of plugs I buy a few. Most run for a few years and some a few months. So when i put them in I tape a spare to the frame and all I have to do is move a plug over. In every case that I have bought two the first has never blown. In the case of the first outboard I did the fucker (DC) quit when a guy hit the starter on the already running engine leaving us floating in the fucking lake with another CDI sitting on shore in my bag.

Edit: The blow on start thing (DC only) is solved by using a diode from neg to positive to stop the inductive spike caused by the solenoid. A large cap can help as well

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

Well its open. To my non Harley educated eyes all but one thing is good. The not good thing is fucked. I got a crack that even if welded will crack again. Not only that but the fucker can only be welded on machined surfaces.

[farmall]

The CDI idea ounds good. Make, model, source?

The HD alternator rotor is not a flywheel but the design is simple enough for easy mods if you wish (like turning whatever size "cup" you desire, cutting out and removing stock splines then welding the splined center into your cup if you don't feel like making a broach out of an output shaft or using a mill with indexer to machine a broach).

Some aftermarket HD alternator rotors encapsulate their magnets while others use structural adhesive similar to stock. The latter style would be easy to rework if desired by (for example) torch heating the adhesive from the rotor side (to be kinder to the magnets if you reuse them).

An improved more reliable version that could run batteryless could make you a nice profit. While the major reason chopper builders run external mags is their kool appearance there are enough HD owners who hate having to replace failed batteries that a quality conversion could sell strongly. Racers would be delighted with the weight and complexity reduction vs. a magneto since speed ain't about pretty.

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That crack is common but the cavity on the other side has room for weld bead intrusion so a thick repair might do the trick. There's enough room for a backing strip which is rare in casting repair but common in structural steel welding. One might provide support for a thick weld buildup then you could plunge cut using an end mill to remove it. Maybe mill out the crack, place a thick backing strip, tack, fill (taking care not to overheat since HD castings love to hot short then crack on cooling) and gradually let cool. Many small beads would be safer than a fat one. (I am very fucking far from a TIG ninja but I've followed a couple around. )

I've not looked into tiny TIG torches to see if one might reach usefully inside but oxy-acetylene repaired some spectacular damage in the early car days when crankcases were unobtanium. I failed to get his info but one gent I met at AMCA Denton preferred OA for case work and used scrap shavings from other cases as filler. You have two junk heads as fin/filler donors...

The mount surface would be easy to true to the other case on a mill. The area that interfaces with the other case isn't large.

Distortion could be controlled by bolting to a plate but a plate or the opposing case but I'd ask people who do MANY case repairs then copy success.

Dragstews does some very nice welding and could sort ya out with advice.

Also check the round lip the inner primary cover registers on as those frequently crack. The repair gaskets work nicely for me.

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Tatro likes Ultima crankcases but there are a variety. (I've not used them so I recuse myself.) You already own a set of flywheels and as you just found out stock cases are disposable. A fresh case set with MSO would have unimpeachable documentation.

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

I don't know if guys would want this system being that your choices are Mitsubishi or chineseium boxes. And the idea would not to be modifying the rotor at all. If I really have trouble finding a stator that fits I'll take a burnt stock one remove 3 post dovetail in the AC stator and do a custom 3 phase winding. I have done it before and it works. Doing the math on the new windings and pattern are the hard part.

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

If I did the mod it would run a 9 post Y or delta termination.(for charging battery and lights) I could probably just use the same math as when I rewind brushless motors for drones. There's so much empty space on those post I think I can do that with minimal loss to efficiency.

Edit: after a look I should have took before posting. This will work, but would not use any harley electric parts at all the rectifier regulator would also be Mitsubishi or chineseium. And I'm thinking 12-20 T delta termination.

[farmall]

Mitsi rectifier regulators are good stuff. No reason not to use one on an HD which come with tons of offshore parts like the killer Denso starters.

If there's a good quality Japanese CDI that might drop in even better. Thoroughly cool idea regardless.

Do you rewind professionally? If there's a local industrial rewinder/rebuilder that might be a worthwhile gig and their stuff of course is much less delicate.

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

I rewind as a hobby I've done 12 pole stators down to 14mm diameter and run 20A at 16.8 volts though em DLRK delta termination. Not only that when I do one I have to do 3 more the same.(race drone motors)

When I was younger the cheapest motorcycles with the least problems were the ones with dead electrical. I spent years learning how to fix em. Five years ago something clicked and there is not a small engine in existence I can not build a system for under $200. In some cases it takes some fabrication, but I have not been defeated since.

Because of this I have saved lots of engines people would otherwise scrap. It's all with honda 4,5,6 wire cdis (Mitsubishi works as well) the Chinese copy the hell out of them and with a few tricks they can be modified to run about anything. With resistors you can even use points. Yes many have built in timming curves, but a little testing you can find the right setup and do some cool shit.

If you ever need a cdi for a 93 yz 250 the blue aluminum AC box gives you the most wonderfully violent power delivery a YZ can get. With stock stator and pickup. I put a lot of time on that setup and had full trust in it. Hell I ran from cops a half dozen times before they caught me on my other bike and flat out stole it from me.

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

Would I be correct in the timing rotor being 225 or 135 degrees. (180 + or - 45*) I'm going to do a bunch of parts up in the 3d printer so once i have my cam and electronics i can build them from metal.

Edit screwed that up. 202.5? Forgot to cut the 45 in half

[farmall]

I've the complete Cycle Electric kit to measure so post any dimension you wanna know.

The caliper is used as a pointer since I'm not an octopus so the actual measurement is 134mm nominal OD. (Coating and build tolerances wouldn't vary much.)

I don't recall the timing degree info off the top of my head but JB and Drag can chime in with advanced knowledge of stock and "stuff they'd like to see".

I mostly just fix 'em when they break as I'm no racer. The Harley Tech Talk forum would be another place to ask advanced ignition tech questions but its kind of slow. https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php

[CaNaDiAnNuTcAsE]

Thanks that's great. I'm having a real hard time getting a price on used heads. People keep saying they have em and not giving me a price other than one guy who offered an entire top end more than twice what I can pick up a complete engine for. I may go the ebay route and get a little raped on the shipping. Trying to avoid it I like buying direct from people as its good to get to know people with parts. I have always found once you buy a few things off a guy in person the prices tend to drop. Not only that I've made a few really good friends that way.

[JBinNC]

Would I be correct in the timing rotor being 225 or 135 degrees. (180 + or - 45*) I'm going to do a bunch of parts up in the 3d printer so once i have my cam and electronics i can build them from metal.

Edit screwed that up. 202.5? Forgot to cut the 45 in half

Rear cylinder fires 315 crankshaft degrees after the front cylinder, so a cam mounted trigger would be half of that, or 157.5 degrees.

Jim

[farmall]

Study which year heads are prone to cracking. (Later is better.)

Dismantlers on Ebay like Deadparts and Pinwall have incentive for customer service and no incentive to sell trash because feedback matters. I've bought from both.

Cheap complete engines tend to be the best parts deals if bought locally and you can open them to inspect or they're already partially torn down. I like donor wrecks too (for bikes, trucks, anything) since they were running when they crashed.

A leftover or scrap left side engine case could make a convenient alternator test jig and a junk crankshaft could provide the output shaft. If ya mix cases they need line lapping (since you can make your own laps that's not a huge deal for someone with your assets).

If you can take overflow work from other machine shops that could quickly generate more cash to choose from a better class of parts.