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  1. #1
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    Default Frame/Suspension ID?

    I've never seen a frame/suspension like this.

    Can anyone tell me about it? Where it came from? Experiences?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by twentyfivemike; 04-01-2020 at 8:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twentyfivemike View Post
    I've never seen a frame/suspension like this.

    Can anyone tell me about it? Where it came from? Experiences?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    They have been around for ever................ Where did you look and how hard????????

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    Obviously hard enough or with the right search parameters. I was Googling things in line with "rigid frame suspension" and "chopper suspension" etc. and just kept seeing little micro-shock or softail setups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twentyfivemike View Post
    Obviously hard enough or with the right search parameters. I was Googling things in line with "rigid frame suspension" and "chopper suspension" etc. and just kept seeing little micro-shock or softail setups.
    Ah ha! PLUNGER SUSPENSION seems to be what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twentyfivemike View Post
    Ah ha! PLUNGER SUSPENSION seems to be what it is.
    Amen frame does that help????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    Amen frame does that help????????
    Yes. Thanks! The general consensus seems to be that they are janky, squirrely, and to stay away from them if you value your health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twentyfivemike View Post
    Yes. Thanks! The general consensus seems to be that they are janky, squirrely, and to stay away from them if you value your health.
    Nonsense I say; ran one hard and fast for 10 years, when I was younger and wilder, regularly above 120 MPH. Gets a bit 'wiggly' when in a corner, bit o' swing and sway, but you get used to it and are aware and expect it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thread: Amen savior
    http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50472



    Good info in here, which includes assembly, and options for some replacement parts:

    How to make an Amen Savior Safe
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hond...fe-t41065.html


    Amen Catalog
    file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tr-holway/My%20Documents/britsh%20bikes/Amen%20Catalog.htm


    AMEN SAVIOR FRAME HISTORY ✓
    file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tr-holway/My%20Documents/britsh%20bikes/Amen%20Savior%20Frame%20History%20-%20Frame%20Design%20&%20Reviews%20%E2%9C%93.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by twentyfivemike View Post
    Yes. Thanks! The general consensus seems to be that they are janky, squirrely, and to stay away from them if you value your health.
    They have a different feel but are fine! When I crawl on a bike with a swingarm in back I spend the first 10 miles worrying that something in back is falling apart.One of my friends rides my plunger bike ever now and then tells me its all wore out n loose for about 10 miles bu the time we get there he's happy with it. It's just what you are used to.
    Dusty

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriNortchopz View Post
    Nonsense I say; ran one hard and fast for 10 years, when I was younger and wilder, regularly above 120 MPH. Gets a bit 'wiggly' when in a corner, bit o' swing and sway, but you get used to it and are aware and expect it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	101579

    Thread: Amen savior
    http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50472



    Good info in here, which includes assembly, and options for some replacement parts:

    How to make an Amen Savior Safe
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hond...fe-t41065.html


    Amen Catalog
    file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tr-holway/My%20Documents/britsh%20bikes/Amen%20Catalog.htm


    AMEN SAVIOR FRAME HISTORY ✓
    file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tr-holway/My%20Documents/britsh%20bikes/Amen%20Savior%20Frame%20History%20-%20Frame%20Design%20&%20Reviews%20%E2%9C%93.htm
    Thanks. I'll do a little more research.

    What are your thoughts though on having a passenger back there?

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    RJ's 1966 Amen Shovelhead Chopper
    Building a bike like Pops used to

    https://www.streetchopperweb.com/rjs...elhead-chopper


    70s AMeN chopper owners group.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/7304...action_generic

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    What are your thoughts though on having a passenger back there?
    no problem, packed pillion all that time...light ones though.

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    The plunger has been around since the late 40s or early 50s, and was copied and used by chopper folks in 70s and early 80s.
    It works, *Kinda-Sorta. Not Really.* Depends on your measurement of success. BSA, Norton and a few others, Indian too? OEM manufacturers used them. BSA raced at Daytona with them in early 50s so cant be all bad.
    But, there were never a great setup. No shock for damping so they pogo a bit, usually they are worn or sloppy so a big wiggly. Once you got up to a certain amount of power, they got a little scary. BSA built a factory hot rod called the "Super Flash" and while the more pedestrian "Golden Flash" was just fine,, the hotter super flash was on the edge of handling. The typical BSA plunger frame was big and heavy, and that added a little stability but honestly most of the BSA Twins of that period were about 35 hp, The Super flash was around 48 hp.
    My wifes 48 Norton 500 Single has the same design plungers and its not fast enough to be a issue.

    On choppers,, I have seen a few, but not a lot. I only met one guy who did long distance riding on one, a Triumph chopper-Plunger and he was in his early 30s... old guys not so much. Just depends on what you are trying to do. Cool-period custom, sunday rider or are you doing 3 state iron butt challenges?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #13
    tzienlee
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    back in the early 70's i bought an old BSA M21 600cc flathead chop with a stock BSA plunger set up & rode it all over, it even got ridden to Spain & Portugal over 3 months without problems, they basically just took the harshness out of big pot holes & bumps, the only downside with the BSA set up was that stock the rear half of the frame was short and didn't give the rider a lot of room....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails old for rowan 021.jpg   old for rowan 075.jpg  

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    Seriously thanks for all the feedback. I've only owned rigid bikes and usually solo/bobbers so it was never an issue (my spine may disagree). I setup my last one with a nice cushy queen, but my wife thought differently. Especially after we rented a massive HD lazyboy for a long haul. She pretty much had a living room back there. I have no expectations that it would be even remotely close to that but just a little extra give may work for her. BUT I'll take safety over comfort any day. Ok ok I'll probably take looks over safety and comfort every day if it was just me on the bike.

    Riding wise. This is Sunday cruising on big long highway stretches. I take things very easy these days. Just enjoying the wind at a reasonable speed.

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    To convert a rigid frame, there are weld-on plunger kits still available; they are similar to the old Santee softail style, with the axle behind the springs on axle plates (AMeN has axle in middle of springs):

    Universal Plunger Conversion Kit
    Part Number 544-5522

    Kit includes:
    Two raw steel round plunger spring boxes to be welded onto a rigid frame or hardtail section to convert to a plunger.
    Two chrome plunger arm assemblies, BCS # 544-5501
    Four chrome plunger springs, BCS # 544-5502
    Two chrome plunger rods with a round chrome cap at one end and a nut on the other, BCS # 544-5503

    Click image for larger version. 

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    British Cycle also make plunger frames for the Brits, and has plunger rear sections(which could be adapted to most machines):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    some of the old plunger frames:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    page 2:
    https://www.meatballsspringers.com.a...ers-australia/


    The first 'softail frame on a 1913 1,000cc Pope:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    A dropseat rigid with a round swingarm looks period kool (because they were) and would get you more travel and permit you to choose how much.

    For carrying two people it would make more sense to use a motorcycle with non-shit (by motorcycle standards, not chopper "I'll pretend this doesn't suck because it looks so kool when parked and I'm too precious to bear esthetic compromise shitting up my artistic vision" standards). Short travel suspensions inherently suck if objective performance is the goal. Is there some overwhelmingly important reason ya can't just add a comfortable motorcycle for distance work and save the bar bikes for the bar? Wife gets actual comfort and since most of us don't stand next to our motorcycles while riding them you're unlikely to be staring at the rear suspension.

    Consider motorcycles as teeter-totters. The rider of a rigid or plunger bike is BETWEEN the wheels. The passenger sits directly over the rear axle so their ride is inevitably much worse. Long wheelbase vehicles of all kinds often ride much more comfortably for the operator because wheel movement is considerably more than rider movement, but on a chopper the passenger is fucked.

    OTOH you can use the plunger idea as an excuse to build another motorcycle and when it doesn't work out you can something with suspension that works to solve that problem.

    Guys often have to be creative to add to the toy fleet and the excuse "it's for the wife" is classic as the Mona Lisa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post
    A dropseat rigid with a round swingarm looks period kool (because they were) and would get you more travel and permit you to choose how much.

    For carrying two people it would make more sense to use a motorcycle with non-shit (by motorcycle standards, not chopper "I'll pretend this doesn't suck because it looks so kool when parked and I'm too precious to bear esthetic compromise shitting up my artistic vision" standards). Short travel suspensions inherently suck if objective performance is the goal. Is there some overwhelmingly important reason ya can't just add a comfortable motorcycle for distance work and save the bar bikes for the bar? Wife gets actual comfort and since most of us don't stand next to our motorcycles while riding them you're unlikely to be staring at the rear suspension.

    Consider motorcycles as teeter-totters. The rider of a rigid or plunger bike is BETWEEN the wheels. The passenger sits directly over the rear axle so their ride is inevitably much worse. Long wheelbase vehicles of all kinds often ride much more comfortably for the operator because wheel movement is considerably more than rider movement, but on a chopper the passenger is fucked.

    OTOH you can use the plunger idea as an excuse to build another motorcycle and when it doesn't work out you can something with suspension that works to solve that problem.

    Guys often have to be creative to add to the toy fleet and the excuse "it's for the wife" is classic as the Mona Lisa.
    Now that's some rational thought. Initially my "look darling it's not another rigid, it has springs in the back!" was working.

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    Some up near Seattle is selling some creative marketing with the period magazine advertisement to help hustle a rear frame section that is period AMEN style. $350, look quick because I am too tired tonight to save and repost the photos.
    See: https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/m...097311648.html

    I have a similar but period British rear frame 1/2s,,, might be BSA or might be Ariel. If you have frame building skills these could really jazz up your build. Im posting it on the for sale section this weekend along with other parts.

    I also have a Basket case early 1950s BSA 500 single pre unit I will be selling soon. I was just gathering parts for it today,

    But that M20 chopper? Ridden across Europe into Spain? Or did you take a ferry or ship? Either way, that had to be one hell of an adventure on a bike like that. I was over there in 1980s, Turkey, A little Greece, Italy and Spain. Drivers there are insane but epic roads and scenery. And on a flat head chopper no less! My hats off to you sir! Road warrior of the day!

    Here is my experience in Turkey, The military, since I was long tour and extended (At the convenience of the govt) Allowed me to ship 1 POV over, I had several hot rod projects so I heard the Turkish were amazing paint and body work, especially metal fab. Plus cheap leather interiors. So I took my 1963 Nova SS with a 327 and a Muncie 4 speed.
    Off base,, at a Railroad crossing this is what happens. Lights flash and arm comes down. You pull up and stop in your lane. Insane drivers (Italian, Greek, Turkish, Spanish....all the same!) Would pull up on either side of you, others would try to go around them, never mind they now have the entire area jammed up. Germany or the UK they would que up in a orderly line. Not there. So, despite the train passing the EXACT same thing is happening on the other side.
    Train finally passes, gate guards swing up,,, instant mayhem. The proper procedure is one hand steers while mashing down the horn, the other arm is outside the window giving rude gestures while you curse at the top of your lungs at the same time.
    Somehow,, like a herd of cattle in a boxed canyon,,, everyone makes it thru. Thats a typical traffic day. Doing it on a moped, you toot the horn go around everyone, duck under the crossing arm and barely miss getting smashed by a freight train cross the tracks anyway. But on a extended chopper??? INSANE!

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    Now that sounds totally crazy Doug! That tail section is rough, but somebody will grab it...saw a guy in Australia was trying to find one to adapt to his early rigid BSA.
    Seattle craigslist-ing:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    tzienlee; love that old BSA chop you had...must have been lots of fun!

    Amen did make tail sections; bolt on for '70 and earlier for Triumphs, weld on for '71+ oil-in-frame Triumph/BSA, and weld on for XS650:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by TriNortchopz; 04-03-2020 at 6:41 AM. Reason: pic

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriNortchopz View Post
    Now that sounds totally crazy Doug! That tail section is rough, but somebody will grab it...saw a guy in Australia was trying to find one to adapt to his early rigid BSA.
    Seattle craigslist-ing:
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	101624Click image for larger version. 

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    tzienlee; love that old BSA chop you had...must have been lots of fun!

    Amen did make tail sections; bolt on for '70 and earlier for Triumphs, weld on for '71+ oil-in-frame Triumph/BSA, and weld on for XS650:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    AMEN also made a kit to convert the Savior back to a rigid frame. We were a stocking AMEN dealer for a couple of years. Here's my take on the Savior. The main problem was lack of maintenance. Parts became loose, needed grease, the rear wheel required adjustment. Most of this was not done by the people who claim they are poor quality. I built one of the first CB500 Saviors and it was fun to ride. We built a CB750 for shows and it rode good too! I saw a problem with the design. Number one was fender/tire clearance. If you used the stock mounts and good fender it was OK. However, I saw quite a few that were modified to sit the fender lower and this usually resulted in the fender bolts making contact with the tire.

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