New guy. 68 BSA

[TriNortchopz]

"I checked the vin number. It's a A65FB, so 68 Firebird."

Gotta ask, since it may be one of 250, (The first year, 1968, BSA made only 250 of these Firebirds, almost all of which went to the United States...) do the engine and frame numbers match?

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I'll try to cover all of it.

You are right, the poor thing is a conglomeration of parts. I don't believe the neck has a rake to it, other than stock. I'm going to look more into it this weekend. I travel to Vegas every week for work, so I don't get time during the week. The triple trees have a rake built into them, and it's a few degrees.

I have the original parts for the fork, just not the tubes or a front wheel. I'm going to pull it apart and see what's there internally.

The gas tank is fiberglass, and seems to be in good shape. I have some original parts, but not a lot. Oil tank, some lights, and a few misc things. I'm not sure if my front fender is correct, and I don't have the side covers, I don't think. I'll look.

The good thing is the engine was just rebuilt, and I have the receipts to show it. I paid 1500 for it. I'm going to try to make a better looking bobber out of it. First I want to sort out the front end, then go from there.

I checked the vin number. It's a A65FB, so 68 Firebird

Just because it has FB is not a guarantee, The only certainty is have it certified and a report by the BSAOC of the UK,,(Some of my bikes have the original dyno test data as early bikes for perf models all had to pass tests on the dyno)
See: https://www.bsaownersclub.co.uk/engi...mberintro.html

From experience in cross-referencing machines against the factory despatch books of which the club have a copy, we have found that in about 50% of cases the bike was not despatched according the date of the lettering. Sometimes they were despatched months earlier or later so the lettering system should just be taken as a rough guide.
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So, it MIGHT be,, but BSA did some weird stuff and the smallest of details are argued about (Such as the meanings of an extra zero, a regular Y a dash Y, thread types and type of dipstick in the intermediate cover,, BSA people are weird, not as weird as Norton people but for sure out in left field.

Further, They are like Ford vs Chevrolet, or Nissan/Datsun vs Toyota, on interchange and parts upgrades. Some really obscure trivia and BSA was the kings of gearing, all kinds of alternative primary gearing and then gear sets inside the tranny along with CS sprockets and rear sprockets.
Main trans had wide and narrow ratios as well as some mixed gear sets.
(What I mean by that is Ford did all kinds of one off parts, where most Chevys parts interchange across a wide variety of years and models, Same with Datsun, where Toyota you have to know the month and DAY made)

So, a factory parts book is mandatory and you have to go page by page and check everything. While most cases it was the DPO (Dreaded Previous Owner) who mixed and matched parts, The factory did it, the importers did it and I know many dealers who did it. I have documentation in some cases. Especially bikes for western US markets.

I cannot tell by your pictures but your front end looks like its off a B series unit single, B25-B40-B44, the fork oil seal holders are tell tale. But in 68 and 69-70 they used SOME Triumph fork parts on the A series bikes and the TLS braked wheels.

Contrary to Farmalls statement,, BSA brakes CAN be quite good, He is correct most are not, but its not the design, its DPO and Current owners not learning how to service them correctly. A chopper doesnt need the 2LS, but keep in mind its the BEST drum brake out there, but even early BSA pancake brake hubs can do stoppies if set up right.

I have been sorting old shop inventory of forks, wheels and triple trees and BSA made a LOT of weird variables,, But I might have the correct parts to put your front end back to stock or better than stock, But Farmall has a good point (Assuming chopper/bobber and not resto) is that there is a wide variety of modern Forks, wheels and brakes out there that still look good on vintage bikes but work WAY better than stock.

Early BSA forks had truly crappy damping and most were one way damping. Nortons and BSA are both famous for their *CLUNK* of their forks, Starting in the 1950s were a variety of mods and kits to improve them,, But that is why in late 68 and 69-70 BSA used Triumph 2 way damper fork parts.

But even most late 1980s and 1990s and on forks are vastly better than stock BSA forks, whether asian bikes or HD. (Other than certain Buell forks MOST HD forks are asian made anyway)

Rebuilt sounds promising, but I am skeptical of most peoples ideas of rebuilds unless I know them well.
When you ask about the sludge trap and you get a blank stare its time for a teardown and look-see.

The oil pumps, stock rods and timing side oil bushings, as well as the factory wet sump valve, pressure relief valve all are topics in themselves.... and lengthy.

Not trying to be all negative here,, the Unit BSA Twin "Power Egg" can be a awesome and powerful-fun engine set up right, But adopting someone elses idea of a custom requires either a LOT of blind faith (Read dashed hopes and dreams) or some meticulous detective work. Very simple, basic agriculturally based machines and at one time was the #1 Motorcycle manufacturer in the world for a good reason.

Hunter S. Thompson had a variety of bikes but bought a BSA 650 because Hot Rod magazine tested them and declared them the fastest production bikes in the world at that time. Here is a story written after a ride on a BSA on the coast highway..
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“Months later, when I rarely saw the Angels, I still had the legacy of the big machine – four hundred pounds of chrome and deep red noise to take out on the coast highway and cut loose at three in the morning, when all the cops were lurking over on 101. My first crash had wrecked the bike completely and it took several months to have it rebuilt. After that I decided to ride it differently: I would stop pushing my luck on curves, always wear a helmet, and try to keep within range of the nearest speed limit … my insurance policy had been cancelled and my driver’s license was hanging by a thread.

So it was always at night, like a werewolf, that I would take the thing out for an honest run down the coast. I would start in Golden Gate Park, thinking only to run a few long curves to clear my head, but in a matter of minutes I’d be out at the beach with the sound of the engine in my ears, the surf booming up on the sea wall and a fine empty road stretching all the way down to Santa Cruz … not even a gas station in the whole seventy miles; the only public light along the way is an all night diner down around Rockaway Beach.

There was no helmet on those nights, no speed limit, and no cooling it down on the curves. The momentary freedom of the park was like the one unlucky drink that shoves a wavering alcoholic off the wagon. I would come out of the park near the soccer field and pause for a moment at the stop sign, wondering if I knew anyone parked out there on the midnight humping strip.

Then into first gear, forgetting the cars and letting the beast wind out .. . thirty-five, forty-five … then into second and wailing through the light at Lincoln Way, not worried about green or red signals but only some other werewolf loony who might be pulling out, too slowly, to start his own run. Not many of those – and with three lanes on a wide curve, a bike coming hard has plenty of room to get around almost anything – then into third, the boomer gear, pushing seventy-five and the beginning of a windscream in the ears, a pressure on the eyeballs like diving into water off a highboard.

Bent forward, far back on the seat, and a rigid grip on the handlebars as the bike starts jumping and wavering in the wind. Tail-lights far up ahead coming closer, faster, and suddenly – zaaapppp – going past and leaning down for a curve near the zoo, where the road swings out to sea.

The dunes are flatter here, and on windy days sand blows across the highway, piling up in thick drifts as deadly as any oil slick … instant loss of control, a crashing, a cartwheeling slide and maybe one of those two inch notices in the paper the next day: “An unidentified motor-cyclist was killed last night when he failed to negotiate a turn on Highway 1.”

Indeed … but no sand this time, so the lever goes up into fourth, and now there is no sound except wind. Screw it all the way over, reach through the handlebars to raise the headlight beam, the needle leans down on a hundred, and wind burned eyeballs strain to see down the centerline, trying to provide a margin for the reflexes.

But with the throttle screwed on there is only the barest margin, and no room at all for mistakes. It has to be done right … and thats when the strange music starts, when you stretch your luck so far that fear becomes exhilaration and vibrates along your arms. You can barely see at one hundred; the tears blow back so fast that they vaporise before they get to your ears. The only sounds are the wind and a dull roar floating back from the mufflers. You watch the white line and try to lean with it … howling though a turn to your right, then to the left and down the long hill to the Pacifica … letting off now, watching for cops, but only until the next dark stretch and another few seconds on the edge… . The Edge… . There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. The others – the living – are those who pushed their control as far as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to when it came time to chose between Now or Later.

But the edge is still Out there. Or maybe it’s In. The association of motorcycles with LSD is no accident of publicity. They are both a means to an end, to the place of definitions.”

-“Midnight on the Coast Highway“, Hunter S. Thompson, 1965

[farmall]

Bottom photo in DTIAs post above has a Harley 39mm narrow glide.

[Trey]

I'm definitely going to try to find a 39mm narrow glide front end. I want to do some measurements this weekend. Do you know what the bottom bearing to axle measurement is?

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

I'm definitely going to try to find a 39mm narrow glide front end. I want to do some measurements this weekend. Do you know what the bottom bearing to axle measurement is?

The 39MM has generally better damping/performance and benefits from stiffer tubes, The brakes are better as well (Generally, but vast room for improvement for forks and brakes) the downside of the 39mm is 2 things,, A) Prices tend to much higher B) No front speedo drive on most

Price is relative, and some deals out there so not a deal breaker, the speedo drive on earlier models is very NICE because it makes it easy to run any number of Speedos instead of the rear wheel on most Brit bikes (although some earlier ones go off the tranny which i like)

For a around town bobber you dont intend to carve canyons with, the 39mm while nice is overkill, Big difference in weight (Mass) between a Big Twin or Sporty HD and a limey bike

35 mm HD sporty front ends are cheaper and easier to find and can be optimized quite nicely 2 types apparently Kayaba and Showa (Stay away from earlier 34mm forks). But a 35mm will be more than good enough and there is a better selection IMHO of parts to optimize.

Stock, all HDs suspension is crap, they ALL need work, depends on how far you want to go, but progressive spring kit, good lightweight performance oils help, and there is some nice drilled stainless rotors out there as well as upgrded caliper and master cyls or adapt some asian 2 pots or 3 pots
(Nissin, Brembo, etc)

There is a wide variety of asian bikes with excellent forks out there for CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and stock far exceed stock HD by a mile. ( Just sayin')

I got some measurements from some of my Sporties, hope this helps:

My 1998 w/ 39mm dual discs is 20 1/2' from bottom of fork stem/tree to axle center line, the distance from floor to axle centerline vertical is 11 1/2" with a 100-90/19" tire, bike is semi complete so factor in weight

Spare parts 39mm of unknown origin/year on the shelf is 21 1/2"

1986 EVO Sporty w/ 35mm is 21 1/2" and 10 1/2" with 19" tire, Bike is fairly complete and weighted accordingly,

I have some other 35mm forks assys as well, but that should get you a ball park, ** Note height can vary by tire cross section, and going from a 19" to 21" is an algorithm basically and not a linear 3" or 1.5" boost as you might assume. Rake angle is a major factor here.

The yellow-white BSA I posted above is one that came out years back and in several magazines and websites. I like the styling but not all the execution but is a nice example... But I have seen variables of BSAs with that paint job so not sure if others copied it, or its ALL the same bike and been changed and updated over the years, but its not uncommon to see a bike go explode in $$$$ on ebay and soon after nearly exact replicas emerge hoping to cash in.

For what its worth, Years back with my shop I used to often cannibalize Kawasakis,, KZ750, KZ900, KZ 1000s and I liked their forks and wheels, Both the mags and wire wheels, The damping tended to be soft but very useable so they made good donors for forks, wheels and brakes. Now, such bikes are rare and collectible, but they made good swap material for a variety of Brit bikes. Wheels came in 19, 18 and 16" depending on model (750 LTD was a HD cruiser bike style so, tended to have a rear 16" and suspensions were soft, but very nice ride!)

[Trey]

"I checked the vin number. It's a A65FB, so 68 Firebird."

Gotta ask, since it may be one of 250, (The first year, 1968, BSA made only 250 of these Firebirds, almost all of which went to the United States...) do the engine and frame numbers match?

They match

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

well, bummer someone messed up a super rare bike. There is tons of BSA twins out there that no one would bat an eye over being cut up but some hillbilly went and cut up a super rare one of 250. Damn!
Guess it makes mine more valuable.

I have a 1966 T120C and its the early 66 so one of 211, I told the guy who had it that it was something very special and why. He did not care. I made sure he fully understood, still did not give 2 shits about it but it had been mildly bobbed when he got it, Wanted something like what he used to have and we made a trade. I went way over & above because I didnt want grief later. It worked out well for both of us and he turned into a long term customer for 12 years.

But I rode that 66 around as a bobber for a while and told all the stick up their A** purists how i was going to cut the neck and make a extreme chopper out of it. Part of the reason people locally still talk sh*t about me today I guess (That F**K'n chopper guy)... But Im not an idiot. Couple years ago spent a bunch of money and bought all the stuff to restore it. Ill run it stock and restored for a while but will eventually sell it. Its worth a small fortune. There is no lack of plain jane or orphan parts out there to chop, but its crazy to see people STILL cutting up a rare bike and destroying the value.

They COULD have 2 or 3 choppers out of what a rare bike like that was worth.

(insert cool hand luke quote)

[farmall]

It wouldn't be too hard for a welder that's any good to combine that frame with a stock donor and maintain matching numbers.

I'd off the thing to a collector and use the money for a Harley. OP would get a much more reliable engine, larger displacement (torque is good), vast aftermarket and a machine you can rely on. Nothing old and British is reliable by modern standards. Don't get me wrong, I love 'em but not blindly. They make great second or third (or more, more is good) machines.

[Trey]

It's already chopped up. I'll keep it. If it were worth a crap load of money, or historically important, I'd put it back to original.

I did play around with it today. It's looking better. Just a mock up, and my camera seems to distort it a little.

It's about 17" from bottom bearing to center of the axle with a 21" wheel. This puts the bottom of the frame level. Anyone have short forks they want to sell?

[hillcat]

I have a complete H-D 39mm NG single disk front end with short tubes and 21'' wheel for sale.
Change the neck bearings to match and you would be good to go.

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

A 39mm would be a good front end, just keep in mind the weight difference, so you will be VERY stiff unless you do something about springs,
Looked close at the pix, and its looking better! But someone was doing some weird ass stuff with that bike. I hope they didnt try and ride it the way it was.
A) The oil tank needs to get swapped with the battery. Oil feed is by gravity, having the tank BELOW crank centerline or even level with it is a recipe for no oil flow, no oil, & bad things happen
B) The coils???? The Horror! the Horror! What moron mounts them under the seat? Some old fat guy like me rides it first bump will short out the coils and might even light up the arts & entertainment district. (Twig & berries), Could lead to endless jokes if you catch my drift. I know my friends would NEVER let me live it down!

Theres a rock band called "Riot!" and they had a song "Fire down under" but maybe a better choice is Jerry Lee Lewis "Great balls of fire!" But seeing its looking like stock Lucas coils you probably are not in too much danger, I have a couple Triumphs and on some the stock hi/lo beam switch and horn button is so craptastic I saw sparks coming out of it when riding it night, I had to do a lot of work to make the switch actually useable without shorting. Stock is not always best. Its never optimal to have sparks or shorted out electrical or ignition parts.

I know this is headed into a custom Bobber territory,, but in 8 hrs it ends on ebay and some guy is selling a alleged 68 Firebird scrambler, it has a 68 wheel on it. Must have been a few that had the Hornet and US Spitfire tanks, also has the pipes on either side too. Zero bids at $5500 and BIN @ $6500. Rare bikes but under performing prices which is common on A65s

See: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-BSA-FI...1bVeBD&vxp=mtr

" VERY CLEAN BIKE WAS RUN LAST YEAR SAT THE WINTER HAS SOME RUSTING ON RIMS HAS BEEN GONE THROUGH A LITTLE OVER A YEAR AGO BY MECHANIC I PURCHASED IT FROM GREAT VINTAGE BIKE FOR RESTORE OR RIDE IT NOW PIPES ONLY THING NOT ORIGINAL THIER HORNET IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE ASK RUNS GREAT IDLES ROUGH FROM SITTING GETTING VERY HARD TO FIND STOCK HAS ABOUT 11K MILES ON IT CAN HELP WITH YOUR SHIPPING JUST ASK THIS BIKE WAS ALSO CALLED DESERT SLED SHIPPED ONLY TO AMERICA VERY FEW MADE TIRES ARE LIKE NEW ALSO HAVE ANOTHER SEAT NEEDS RECOVER COMES WITH NEW COVER LIKE ORIGINAL selling because not a good bike for a 70 year old with bad back

VIN # A65FB3150

[Trey]

I have moved the oil tank up, and took off a bunch of goofy mounting brackets. The coils will be moved, but I'm not sure where yet. It's coming along. My main goal is to get a front end under it. I'm ok with running a 39mm unit. I'd like a springer, but I can't find one that supports a front brake and isn't super wide.

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

Good move on the Oil bag, Gravity! Its not just a good idea, its the LAW!

The stock position for the coils is a cross frame bracket just above the ass end of the motor, below the carbs (They get dribbled on a little if you tickle the amals, and lots of fuel spits out of the intakes on these when running, Folks that run without air cleaner and just velocity stacks learn how MUCH fuel spits out pretty quick, tends to mess up the paint on the oil tank, side covers and rear fender too)

There ARE narrow springers or you can build one See: http://www.chopperhandbook.com/ness1.htm

I was just mentioning also the Jammer chopper guide as there is some good tech articles in there as well. One of which, I just ALSO mentioned was the one about correct mounting of a wheel, spacers and setting up a disc brake on a springer or girder. There is repop vintage BSA, Norton and Matchless springers on ebay made in India, and despite the hate towards some of the stuff made in India, some of it is pretty good and the prices are awesome. But despite my support for some of these parts I have my doubts about RIDING one of those repop springers, would be fine for a show bike or static display but working in manufacturing and mettalurgy trades I am just a bit leery of trusting my a&& going down the free at 70 mph with Buffy the soccer Milf tailgating me in her Escalade while texting her BFF that clearly, Becky is just not that hot. Dont want to be a meat pizza splat and already got clobbered badly from behind by a drunk.

If you go that route and cant find a copy of the tech articles on springers & girders and setting them up right, PM me and Ill scan the relevant pages, or can make you a photocopy of the whole book.
(I used to reprint them)

[farmall]

BTW ethanol fuel permeats then destroys fiberglass tanks. Some have luck with two-part sealants. Solvent-based sealants cure by evaporation and are easily damaged by the solvent effects of ethanol.

[Trey]

Thanks for all the information guys. I'm having fun with this bike. Got some new bars today. I can almost see what it's going to look like!