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  1. #1

    Default Fouling one plug and popping through exhaust.

    Well after a break from the '37 UL I'm back working on it. Quick background on this one for anyone that doesn't know.

    1937 UL, flathead big twin , 80", Servicar-timer, CV carb from a 1200 Evo Sporty. It's a fresh motor that I built.

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    IRONHEAD OIL PUMP

    I was trying to use the ironhead pump conversion like Dick Linn (Frankenstein) uses to get better oil pressure for these old flatheads. I struggled with the ironhead pump for a while. The last time the ironhead pump was on there, it was making hardly any oil pressure once warmed up. Pretty much 0 PSI. Found that the snapring in the IH pump had munched itself for some reason.

    I learned of the Calas oil pumps from Sweeden, or Calas High Performance (CHP). I bought his pumps for the ULs and they seem to work good. I'm getting 15+ PSI of hot oil pressure at idle with the CHP oil pumps.

    Dick was nice enough to share his experience with using an ironhead pump on these BTSVs and he was very helpful both in talking on the internet, and on the phone.

    I'm sure I could have figured out the IH pump and made it work but the convenience of the Calas pumps lured me that direction.

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    LEAKY NIPPLES

    I also was battling intake leaks at the nipples. I got these jugs from ACF. Feel free to do some searching around on ACF, and Paul Friebus to see what that is all about if you don't already know. The intake nipples leaked like crazy when I tested them with compressed air and a soapy rag. Just bubbles EVERYWHERE around the nipples.

    I pulled the jugs, and removed the intake nipples that ACF installed. I installed the proper nipples, using Gasoila sealant on the threads. I ditched the OEM brass intake seals and replaced them with PEEK seals. I replaced the nipple rivets with a set screw that I believe Colony makes for Panheads.

    With the new nipples, and the PEEK seals, the intake leaks were 99% gone when I tested them. I just had to tighten the intake nuts a little bit more until the bubbles stopped forming. I then drilled holes for the nipple set screws and installed them.

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    THE PROBLEM

    Soooooo.... After hopefully putting the problems of oil pressure and intake nipple leaks behind me here's where I'm at now.

    I was running the bike last night after timing the timer correctly (as far as I know).

    The bike runs better than it has in a while, making a nice 15 PSI hot oil pressure at idle. AND! That is with the pump feeding my piston squirters!! (Thanks Dick!)


    The problem I'm having now, is the front cylinder is popping though the exhaust and fouling that one plug really fast.

    I suspect either the points/condenser, or the coil. I put fresh plugs in it last night and the front plug gets carbon fouled very quickly. I switched plug wires around with 4 different plug wires and that didn't change anything either.

    I think I'm not getting hot enough spark in the front cylinder. Like I said, I suspect an ignition issue but I'm not sure. Being perfectly honest I don't really have any experience with points/condenser setups like this.

    What do you guys think? Points/condenser? Coil? What's the best way to test either of these?

  2. #2
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    Could be the coil. If it's a stock waste spark ignition, swap the plug wires at the coil and see if the problem migrates to the rear.

    Also be sure that you have the ignition timing correct. Don't guess and don't "play around " with it. The bike will start and run decent if the timing is correct, stock spec. Static timing these things is dead simple once you understand it. Timing that is off can cause one plug to foul.

    Jim

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    Timing it to the wrong points cam lobe will result in that behavior.
    Dusty

  4. #4

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    I swapped plug wires at the coil, no difference.

    I timed the breaker this way since it's a servicar timer on this UL:

    http://www.classic-motorcycle-build....-ignition.html


    Only in my case, there is not a notch on the points cam lobe. So I pointed the center of the NARROW cam lobe at the breaker points fiber. Again, just like on that site with those pictures, but I have no notch but should be the same AFAIK?

    DickLinn on another forum I've been asking about this has mentioned replacing the condenser. That is on the list of some of the next things to check. Any other suggestions?

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    If you do your ignition timing with the front cylinder in overlap, instead of on the compression stroke, it would amount to nearly the same as timing on the wrong lobe, as Dusty Dave said above. Being a four stroke motor, the timing marks on the flywheel will show up on either TDC event. Of course hard starting would be the result, but flatheads are in such a mild state of tune that the motor may actually run (poorly) that way.

    Jim

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    according to 1940 service manual, which includes UL, breaker cam gear may not be in original position if it has been replaced so original marks will not align, disregard timing marks.

    set advanced timing with front piston on compression stroke at 11/32" BTDC.

    note, this info from service manual is for original components.

    see page 83 for'46 and earlier here:

    https://www.carlsalter.com/mcpdf/Har...ice-manual.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriNortchopz View Post
    according to 1940 service manual, which includes UL, breaker cam gear may not be in original position if it has been replaced so original marks will not align, disregard timing marks.

    set advanced timing with front piston on compression stroke at 11/32" BTDC.

    note, this info from service manual is for original components.

    see page 83 for'46 and earlier here:

    https://www.carlsalter.com/mcpdf/Har...ice-manual.pdf
    That note applies to the witness marks on the ignition breaker body that were marked at the factory. Of course the timing marks on the flywheels don't change.

    Jim

  8. #8

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    Well I timed it per my service manual. Front cylinder to TDC on compression stroke, just as the intake valve has closed and both valves are closed. Timing mark in window on left crankcase. But I'm not saying I didn't screw it up.

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    Compression and valve adjustment good on that cylinder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDeeZ View Post
    Well I timed it per my service manual. Front cylinder to TDC on compression stroke, just as the intake valve has closed and both valves are closed. Timing mark in window on left crankcase. But I'm not saying I didn't screw it up.
    Advance timing mark, and timer in its fully advanced position?

    Jim

  11. #11

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    I'm going to check the valve adjustment and also take some pics of what I've done to time it to see if you guys think I'm heading the right direction.

    This bike does NOT have matched heads. The rear is slightly higher compression than the front. I realize this isn't ideal, and I intend to buy some matching heads for it at some point. But I was really hoping to get it going decent as is and PARK it till I can do that.

    This was my dads bike, (RIP) and it's been around for 20 years. It has had mismatched heads this entire time, (and who knows how long before we came to own it). And that never seemed to matter. It has munched a top end a couple times in that time frame since we've had it, but as far as I can tell that was from the inadequate oiling system these flatheads had. I'm basing this on the research I've done and this source is one of them. Dick is a super nice guy and he has been playing with flatheads since the 70s so I think he is a credible source regarding the inadequate oiling system being to blame for the top ends not lasting very long on a flathead.

    https://dicklinn.webs.com/


    I have piston oilers in this build, I added them when I built this motor and I thank Dick for sharing his information regarding how to do this in order to improve reliability on these motors.

  12. #12

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    I readjusted the valves and retimed the timer. No change. I will do a compression test again and report back.

    Checked it for intake leaks again. No leaks evident after I replaced the intake nipples and installed the Colony nipple setcrews for Panheads.











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    Pictures of breaker points and timer etc.







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    Here's how I timed it. Just following along with the service manual on how to time it.


    Front cylinder on TDC of compression stroke, verified by making sure intake valve is closed.


    Timing mark on flywheel just left of center in window in left crankcase.


    Narrow point on points cam facing towards the center of timing bracket. It took several tries to get it here, as on some attempts to stab it I was a tooth off.


    Settings points gap at .022" per manual.

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    New plugs after only a few minutes of run time. You can see the plug on the right already starting to get sooty and carbon fouled.






    Autolite 46 plugs


    Autolite 46 plugs

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    Some pictures of my WELL WORN service manual










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    Dick mentioned trying a new condenser. I'm wanting to try that next. I guess looking up a points and condenser kit for a servicar timer should be what I need since that's what this UL is running.

    Any suggestions on where to source a condenser and points kit? Any suggestions on what else to try?

  13. #13
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    1) It looks like you have a Standard Blue Streak condenser, judging by the blue wire. That is my go-to at this point, good condensers being rather hard to come by, and subject to early failure.

    2) I think your understanding of the method of timing is way off, and your timing is, too.

    Set the point gap first, and disregard the flywheel position while doing it. Just get the point rubbing block on the highest point of each lobe, and check the point gap on each lobe, and average it out at .016 - .020 on each lobe (i.e., the gap on each lobe may be different, but that's OK as long as they each fall within the range). Then, put the advance timing mark in the hole, on the front cylinder compression stroke. Adjust the timer base until, when you advance the point cam to the limit of its advance unit (turning it clockwise with pliers), the points just break. You can use a test lamp to check the break point. With the ignition on, the lamp will light when the points break.

    3) It appears that you have an aftermarket timer. It is the automatic advance type. There should be an e-clip in the slot above the point cam to hold the point cam in place. And be warned that the advance units in these things are subject to wear and failure, and should be serviced regularly. Disassemble, clean, and lube the pins and other contact points with white lithium grease, or other light grease (not chassis grease). Note that I gave a different range of point gap from the one in your manual. That is the cone shovel spec, and better suited to your timer, as the mechanism is based on the cone shovel advance unit.

    4) The points and condenser are cone shovel items, '70 - '78 (?). Standard Ignition offers a Blue Streak kit that works well.

    5) You get this timing right, and your plug problems will disappear, I can all but guarantee it. Good luck with it.

    Jim
    Last edited by JBinNC; 02-21-2021 at 2:57 PM.

  14. #14

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    Jim,

    Thankyou very much. I appreciate your feedback. If you recall, you helped me figure out the timing on my EVO sporty chopper when I put the Dyna-S in there to make it kickstart friendly.

    Point being, As good of a wrench as I consider myself from some of the things I have accomplished, there is clearly a lot more for me to learn. Case in point with timing these things. As confident as I am in my abilities, I rejoice in being humbled and learning something.

    Are the service manual's instructions on timing that BAD? Or, am I just mucking this up that bad? Probably the latter I will try everything you have described here and see what I got. I guess what is also a factor, is that I have been trying to use the service manual for timing a BTSV, when I have a servicar timer from a much later flathead, and, according to you, a cone shovel points setup?

    I feel very encouraged by your last post, you obviously know your stuff and you've been quite helpful to me in this thread and others.

    Thankyou Jim.

    -Chase
    Last edited by CDeeZ; 02-21-2021 at 9:17 PM.

  15. #15
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    The instructions in the service manual are for the stock, manual advance timer. That is NOT what you have, and so almost everything in the manual will not apply. Thank goodness for your pics, as that makes identification of your parts possible. If you follow my instructions, and especially before you do anything else, service that advance unit, then I bet your mill will run sweet as a nut.

    Jim

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    The end of that red wire at your points looks sloppy; kinda bare and scraggly - is it making full contact with the points? does it need a new connector on there to ensure positive connection?
    that blue wire from the condensor doesn't look that good either - is the connection good there?
    and both wires not grounding out from wayward wire strands?

  17. #17

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    I just finished cleaning and greasing the advance unit. Good info Jim, as it was sticky and likely not sliding freely as intended. I cleaned and greased it and the advance unit swings out and returns nicely now. Looks like the same mechanical advance unit I put in my evo Sporty for the Dyna-S. I better service that one soon too!!!

    TriNort, You're definitely right, those wires are shitty. But still working, for now. Going to do them up proper FOR SURE before I try to ride anywhere. I believe they're OK for testing purposes for now at least.

  18. #18

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    Found that the E clip or snapring was missing from the points cam.


    But there's definitely a snap ring/ E clip groove in that shaft.


    Cleaned and greased the advance mechanism per Jim's advice.


    Paying no mind to the flywheel timing marks, I stabbed the dizzy back in the timing cover and proceeded to set the points gaps per Jim's advice; .020" points gap on both the front and rear cylinder points cam lobes.


    I then brought the front cylinder up to TDC on compression, verified by both valves being closed. Specifically, the intake valve.


    Then rolled the motor forward a bit more until the timing mark was visible in the left crankcase.


    Clamped some visegrips on the points cam, to roll the points cam clockwise.


    Turned ignition on and held the points cam all the way clockwise with the visegrips. Also, held the test light on the spot where the condenser and the incoming coil wire connect, with the other end of the test light clipped to ground. While holding the test light, I made sure the visegrips were twisted clockwise to the full extent of the advance mechanism's travel, and then rotated the entire distributor/timer until finding the spot where the points break, as indicated by the test light illuminating. I set the dizzy/timer there and fired it up.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJl_H_pQpQU&t=1s

    The video at the link above is idling with some throttle rips after doing all this. I feel like the exhaust still sounds poppy, but I think I'm reading into this way to much. Drag pipes, and a carb that isn't 100% dialed in, it's bound to pop in the exhaust right? It's been so long since I've heard this BTSV run right I really can't remember what it should sound like.




    New plugs after running it this time.


    The CHP pumps are pretty much maxing out the 30 PSI oil pressure gauge with the rubber hose that feeds the piston squirters pinched shut with vise grips. Remove the vise grips to add the piston squirters to the oil feed scheme, and the oil pressure is a solid 15+ PSI hot idle oil pressure. I'm feeling good about the oil pressure this thing is making now, plus the fact that there is cooling oil being shot on the bottom side of the piston crowns.

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    Stupid Noobie Question I can't help but ask because I don't know any better:

    Is it supposed to blow a mist of fuel (I assume it is fuel?) out of the carb when the throttle is opened?

    Is this a characteristic of flat heads or?

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    Quote Originally Posted by confab View Post
    Stupid Noobie Question I can't help but ask because I don't know any better:

    Is it supposed to blow a mist of fuel (I assume it is fuel?) out of the carb when the throttle is opened?

    Is this a characteristic of flat heads or?
    That's reversion and it is mostly influenced by the exhaust system. The air cleaner helps retain some of it. You can see it on drag bikes with velocity stacks quite often. And yes, it is one reason why exhaust pipe selection can make carb tuning difficult.

    Jim

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