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  1. #1
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    Default Belly number fun

    I just traded a pile of parts for this Pan I believe to be a 59. Really don’t know and neither did the guy I got it from. He got it off a Gypsy joker guy in Eugene, OR that had it titled as a 77 when he built his project back then. So it’s a custom dmv vin on the case and the belly numbers are whacky.

    Any idea what’s going on here? Only the backside case has numbers.

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  2. #2
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    ^^^^^^ It looks like someones phone number to me.............^^^^^^^ Restamped???????? Hell yea........

    What does the numbers boss look like???? You don't have to show all the numbers just a couple.....

    1977???? I think not...... Hope you didn't trade anything of huge value for it...... But it can be fixed.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    ^^^^^^ It looks like someones phone number to me.............^^^^^^^ Restamped???????? Hell yea........

    What does the numbers boss look like???? You don't have to show all the numbers just a couple.....

    1977???? I think not...... Hope you didn't trade anything of huge value for it...... But it can be fixed.........
    Yea the whole thing is wacky, I traded some motor parts that I didn’t have the ability to restore. Nothing of great value unless you have the tools and the means to fix everything.

    The vin boss is restamped “DMV212xxxx” so it’s a custom build I guess.

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    That "178" prefix (if I am reading it correctly) means a big twin, 1978. So, not a '77 at all, and certainly not a pan belly number. Should be on an alternator left side, cone right side. If it's a pieced together motor, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by firstripholdmybeer View Post
    The vin boss is restamped “DMV212xxxx” so it’s a custom build I guess.
    Yea I wouldn't worry about it....... Just don't go to Florida with it....... LOL

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    That motor is 1955 to around 61 ...

    Wonder if a acid test would show the og numbers ..

    ______________________________________

    Raising the numbers:
    Restoring Altered VINs or Serial Numbers

    TAMPERING with the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) on a vehicle or the parts of a vehicle is clearly an illegal act. For decades,


    However, criminals have sought ways to change them, grind them down or just plain remove them

    Law-enforcement officers have continued to struggle with altered identities of stolen property, and have worked to establish methods to recover VINs and serial numbers stamped into the frames of property.

    The serial number on items such as motor vehicles, firearms, bicycles, and motorcycles are commonly removed or altered in an attempt to prevent the identification of the item’s original owner. The serial number can sometimes be restored depending on the degree of obliteration or alteration.

    When a number is stamped into a metal object, the metal underneath the number is compressed and hardened. Even when the number is ground off, this hardened area may still be present. By applying an acid solution, the metal can be slowly eaten away and the number may reappear. This is commonly referred to as “raising the serial number”.

    By restoring an obliterated or altered serial number, an object can possibly be traced and returned to its original owner, or may link a suspect to a crime scene.

    The process

    Begin the process in a clean and well-ventilated area. Care should be taken to set up photography equipment prior to the etching process. The etching process should be monitored and photographed at various stages, as the entire process could take up to several hours.

    It is recommended that all spurious marks be removed from the surface before any attempt is made to restore the VIN or serial number. The surface should be brought to a high-gloss finish, even if some irregularities exist. The use of sandpaper or an emery cloth in 320, 400, and 600 grit is recommended to achieve the glossy finish.

    Use a cleaning solvent to remove all traces of oils, grease, or other substances that will prolong the etching process. Alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl keytone (MEK), carbon tetrachloride, and gasoline all provide good results.

    The etching reagent our agency currently uses is a modified Fry’s reagent that is comprised of concentrated hydrochloric acid, distilled water, and crystalline cupric chloride. The reagent is made in a controlled laboratory environment where it is commonly used to recover serial numbers that have been removed from firearms.

    Using a cotton swab, apply the reagent to the polished area slowly, in a back-and-forth motion over the surface. It is not necessary to apply pressure to the surface. Swabs comprised of cotton batting rolled onto applicator sticks (such as those found in laboratories) make suitable swabs for applying the reagent.

    Under certain circumstances, it may become necessary to confine the reagent to a specific area. This can be done by constructing a dam completely around the area using products such as Mikrosil or AccuTrans, forming a dam no more than 0.25-inch high (Figure 2).

    Monitor the progress of the etching process to ensure the quality of the characters that appear and be ready to stop and neutralize the etching by flushing with water.

    Capturing the characters

    Photography is one of the easiest ways to capture and document the characters once they have been recovered. The use of a tripod and remote shutter release will ensure a much better quality photograph (Figure 3). The use of a scale in the photograph will provide the appropriate documentation needed. Oblique lighting usually serves as the best method to illuminate the characters for your photograph.

    Once the characters have been raised and your photographs have been taken, a simple modeling clay can be used to make a cast or impression of the VIN number. Then apply a product such as Mikrosil or AccuTrans against the modeling clay and allow it to cure. The result is a complete replica of the numbers that were raised from the damaged plate. The numbers and photographs can then be secured as evidence.

    In addition to the chemical etching process, electricity can be used to expedite the process. Making the surface the positive pole of a low DC circuit (a 6- or 12-volt battery), and using the swab as a cathode or negative pole markedly speeds up the metal removal. This process is best applied to harder steels such as motorcycle and vehicle frames.
    Last edited by Dragstews; 4 Weeks Ago at 6:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragstews View Post
    Wonder if a acid test would show the og numbers ..
    Yep it might tell a lot...... But you would have to be fast my friend......

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    I gave up being fast when I turned 65 ....
    Even took the Nos bottle off the Buell, hair dryer still works super well. Lol ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragstews View Post
    That motor is 1955 to around 61 ...

    Wonder if a acid test would show the og numbers ..

    ______________________________________

    Raising the numbers:
    Restoring Altered VINs or Serial Numbers

    TAMPERING with the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) on a vehicle or the parts of a vehicle is clearly an illegal act. For decades
    .........
    Killer info right there. Thanks for posting this!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragstews View Post
    That motor is 1955 to around 61 ...
    Curious what gives that away to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    Yea I wouldn't worry about it....... Just don't go to Florida with it....... LOL
    Hahaa, are they pretty strict on their Vin checks if one gets pulled over?

    I should mention there is a matching Title for the Vin on the motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firstripholdmybeer View Post
    Hahaa, are they pretty strict on their Vin checks if one gets pulled over?

    I should mention there is a matching Title for the Vin on the motor.
    You don't need to be pulled over in Fla they walk around and look for funny vins like yours. The Vin number on a 1977 should be on the frame not the motor......... But you should be ok riding at home..............

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    DMV titles (that are legit) supersede anything previous. They can be issued via (for example) paperwork from Sheriff's auctions of unclaimed stolen goods. I would immediately get that title into your state DMV system so you can (in theory) always get a copy. I get hard copies on the spot for my records since DMVs can and do purge older titles. It's effortless to be a fanatic about paperwork and there's no good reason not to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firstripholdmybeer View Post

    Curious what gives that away to you?
    55 was the first year for the 1.250" splined motor sprocket shaft ...
    The later Pan motor cases started having more meat put into the castings ...

    I could probably narrow it down more if a photo of the other side is posted .. ??
    Last edited by Dragstews; 4 Weeks Ago at 4:03 PM.

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    I believe the left case at least is an aftermarket case, since the drain plug boss is not drilled & tapped, and all H-D pan cases I have seen, have that drain plug.

    If you have a title in your name that matches the number on that case, as far as the state is concerned, it is YOURS. If the title is not yet in your name, do what Farmall says, and get that paperwork right. If your state says it's yours, the state of Florida, or any other state can go pound sand.

    Jim
    Last edited by JBinNC; 4 Weeks Ago at 6:00 PM. Reason: Goddamned autocorrect!!! is dropping words

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinNC View Post
    If your state says it's yours, the state of Florida, or any other state can go pound sand.

    Jim
    Wanna bet?????????????? I'm talking feds not some silly state guys........... They will take it to see what the numbers are under the restamped numbers......
    Last edited by Tattooo; 4 Weeks Ago at 8:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    Wanna bet?????????????? I'm talking feds not some silly state guys........... They will take it to see what the numbers are under the restamped numbers......
    If it is a replacement case, the numbers will not be a "restamp." A lot of this number stuff is just bullshit. A replacement case can have an existing number stamped in, the dealers did it routinely up through at least the sixties, all perfectly legal. As I said above, that case looks like an aftermarket piece to me. If it were used to repair an existing motor, putting the existing number on it should be OK. (That is a gray area. )

    But I agree, altering a serial number on any vehicle is a federal offense.

    Jim

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    Wanna bet?????????????? I'm talking feds not some silly state guys........... They will take it to see what the numbers are under the restamped numbers......
    In what alternate universe are the Feds going to etch cases then pursue a case against a subsequent owner of a legally titled object worth pocket change? Where has that actually happened and under what specific circumstances? Titles are state documents and that case could in fact have been unclaimed stolen goods forfeited to the state then legally sold at auction along with the usual asset forfeiture and abandoned property sold with magistrate paperwork then titled via DMV including vehicles of all kinds.

    On what pretext would Feds even look at a motorcycle engine case when vehicle enforcement is a state issue (absent shit like major theft rings)? The only bikers at any risk of such bogus prosecution would be patch holders (and they tend to win).

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post
    DMV titles (that are legit) supersede anything previous. I get hard copies on the spot for my records since DMVs can and do purge older titles. It's effortless to be a fanatic about paperwork and there's no good reason not to.
    In Tennessee, you have to wait on title to be mailed from Nashville to you, it gives them time to discriminate, I guess, just sayin'
    But I do agree with what you're saying.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post
    On what pretext would Feds even look at a motorcycle engine case when vehicle enforcement is a state issue (absent shit like major theft rings)? The only bikers at any risk of such bogus prosecution would be patch holders (and they tend to win).
    Think what you want but it happens........ Even more so on the state level.........

    Plus, Hell I could care less it's not my bike...... Just trying to help with what might happen in the future........
    Last edited by Tattooo; 4 Weeks Ago at 7:46 AM.

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