Hardtail motorcycles and high speed.

[frisco1rigid]

Hi Tattooo
Thanks for the Compliment on the motorsickles.

Gearing and or heat has never been a prob for us across the AZ/NM summer desert at those speeds because of correct set-up (tuning) and our sickles are all geared at 3.22 Final drive which can be raised in 30 minutes to 3.05 for the 4-speeds and 3.09 for the 5-speeds which I do to the 2 sickles we ride before a long desert roll.
That gearing keeps the Rpm's about 5,000 at 120.
Of course we don't do Hundreds of miles at 120 -- perhaps 20 - 30 miles then settle back down to 105 - 110 continuous - and repeat. 105 - 110 is about 4500 Rpm which any and all HD style motor in good tune should be able to do Easy and long.
All of our Trans. have a 3.24 to 1 ---- or 3.00 to 1 first gear so there is still plenty Low-end grunt to burn a hole-shot across a 4 lane intersection.
In mid 70's my 2 Pans ate up 105 + up n down Hiway 5 in Cal, the first 2 sickles I built before going to Shovel.
Fond memories but I'll never go back to Pans.
The Shovel in the pic's is in a 1952 Wishbone, the only mods were to cut off the Manual Brake cross-over tube to fit something but my old memory cannot remember what, that piece can be welded back on if desired for OEM restore --- and make special spacers for the 3.4" axle to fit in the Wishbone axle carriers.

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

No bravado, please. Just a straight answer.

On a scale of 1 to 5, how safe is a hardtail bike on the interstate?

Assume real world conditions with potholes and all the BS you typically find. A "5" being as safe as your new Ultra Classic.

What's the score if it also has a springer?

Ok, late to this discussion but saw this and meant to reply, take it for what its worth & what you paid me.

Its highly variable depending on a number of factors, Rake, trail, type of forks, do you have the right wheels and tires and what combos? (Some are more stable than others).

READ the Chopper builders handbook and study how to set up front end geometry. For example, In the 1990s Kennedys choppers built really nice LONG swedish style chops with long springers, extreme rakes and they set them up to handle really nice, But they had the geometry figured out.

So, typically hard tails onto a stock frame, either bolt on, or weld on, you have a choice often of stretch and drop. A short stretch doesnt leave much options for oil tanks/bags, but its more about geometry. Same as Drop. (I have a rolling chassis Paughco swedish style Sportster right now I gotta do surgery on, it sits too damn low! The world is not flat! One speedbump or sharp parking lot entrance and Ill high center)

So, people get front ends wrong all the time. Theres a popular thread on here about "NorCal style" and its F**King retarded,, bunch of Mt Dew drinkers (Nectar of the 'tards), Those are all about a style celebrating really bad handling.


A mismatched rake and trail and its dangerous.. Good rule of thumb is look at the bike from the side, is the bottom of the frame level with the ground? Thats a good sign! Chances are it will be a decent rider. When they sit high in the front they suck at low to moderate speeds and hard to control.. compounding this some idiots put narrow bars on them for even less control and leverage.
(* Narrow bars are ok with neutral steering,)
I had shop customers who had bikes set up that way (Norcal for hipster slang) and they were miserable to ride. Again, read the chopper handbook on this topic!

Next up Springers,,, only 2 reasons to run them, style or originality. Vintage bikes ran them and if you are riding a 36 HD with them, probably best to keep that original! Same with early British bikes,, rare as all hell today. (Stay away from the India made repop British bike springers, some India made stuff is decent but the ones I have seen are suitable only for a static display on a wall or over a bar,)

But, I have some long springers and aftermarket frames. They look AWESOME! Not so fun to ride. Heavy as hell, no suspension damping either and they pogo.

So, weight. Let me introduce you to the secret of building. For performance and comfort, you want low unsprung weight. This means on a car, anything supported by the springs. So to make the point, let me use a race car cost-benefit formula to illustrate, But the same applies to bikes and WHY Eric Buell is a genius! (Buells Rock!).

So, given a budget on a perf car-race car build WHERE do you spend the most effectively for over alll performance besides the engine? WEIGHT! So, 50 pounds of unsprung weight roughly translates to 500 pounds sprung weight. (See the explanation in Fred Puhns engineering and racing books)
So, IF you spend a little more on lightweight wheels, light calipers and rotors and tubular A Arms,, it is a huge increase in performance. To get the same you would have to replace ALL the body panels in Carbon fibre or fiberglass. 50 vs 500 pounds,,Dollar for dollar best results are in that unsprung weight reduction.

So, forks? A typical springer weights 2x - 3x more than a good set of hydraulic forks. If you can ride the same bike there is not even a question on ride and feel. The hydraulic front end wins. Doesnt make the same visual statement, but it wins.

Part 2,, Springers and girders, except a few exceptions dont have damping. They Pogo. Hit a pot hole, road construction or hit the brakes hard and BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE! You can lose control, you cant corner for shit, and other riders will leave you in the dust.

I took in a shop customers old Triumph, the springer was way too long, bad geometry and some other issues. LONG front end, I shortened it by 4 inches and added a decent brake, the owner couldnt believe the difference with the shorter front end. He could ride it faster as well. I got a pix of it around here, think I posted it before.

Now, Delving into history.,.. at one time ALL factory bikes were rigids and people did just fine. An old guy at our cabin, a WW2 veteran no less who survived Pearl Harbor. He had a 47 Harley,, traded it in a 48 Hydroglide. Hated it! Those early ones had shitty forks. He went back and got his 47 back, strapped a side car on it, loaded his pregnant wife in the side car and rode it across the US after the war out here to Oregon to work in a sawmill. Pennsylvania to Southern Oregon. Now his Pregnant wife rode in the side car, and I know their daughter Kim, Bouncing all that way in her mommas belly might explain some of her issues.

You ask Harry about riding a rigid? Not a damn thing wrong with them! (He and a buddy also rode down into mexico to the panama canal and back, epic stories on those bikes)

Im mostly a British bike guy and I collect early rigids. Late 40s Britt bikes.. Norton, BSA, Triumph.
Heres a 48 speedtwin, and Im building one of my own slowly,. Sold last year a 46 & 52 to fund it, see that sweet sexy design? Most iconic beautiful motorcycles IMHO.....
But heres the Man himself who designed them, Edward Turner, CEO of Triump, the floozie? Rita Hayworth who knows a classy bike when she sees one.



See this guy??? He is Kenny Eggars, One of the BSA Wrecking crew who handed Harley their Ass at Daytona. Swept the field on these BSA rigids,, He is from my home town Portland Oregon and famous around these parts... I have one of his old race bikes and building it as a tribute to him. Its a 1952 rigid BSA A10 and originally had a 500 twin but Im running a BSA Hotflash combo with all kinds of race parts and hotrodding. Pretty cool guy and won all kinds of races,, on, a rigid!

Here is Kenny Again at Portland meadows, a horse racing track that also saw motorcycle racing back in the day.. Famous tuner and builder Rossi in the coveralls and that dude on the other bike? None other than the Mann with the plan himself. Dick Mann.



and one more, This is Kenny racing at Willow Springs Calif,, pretty fast dude!

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

2 mixups.,., Thats Edward Turner with Rita, sexy Rita,,

Heres Kenny on his factory race BSA Rigid frame.

So, anyway,, Triumph was not too sure in early 1950s about swing arms and shocks so they hedged their bets on the topic and kept making rigids as well as race model rigids up until 1958, Look up the T100R and RR rigid frame racers came in swing arms and rigids and a lot of controversy about the frames. I have 2 that are super rare,, a 53 T100C rigid with all alloy motor and a RR 1956 thats later with a Delta race head.

But if you want to see what the coolest rigid racing triumphs were? A local guy & Friend, Tom Ruttan has 2 of these, ones a replica built using all factory race parts, but the frame isnt a factory race frame, thats the replica, But he has a real one too. Rocking horse poop. Only a few real ones out there,, maybe less than 10 of them exist.

This one he completed in 2012 and sold it at Las Vegas to fund his other projects.



You can read about here, But these were factory racers, or you could buy a early performance model and install the Factory racing kit that came in a box full of speed parts specially made for these...
See: https://triumphmotorcycles.typepad.c...ica-32500.html

" Tom Ruttan finished this restoration of a 1949 Triumph Grand Prix Replica in August, 2012. Tom is the owner of Cascade Classic Cycles (est. 1990) and has been collecting and restoring vintage motorcycles for over 40 years. This GP Replica is the crowning achievement of Tom’s many years as a motorcycle restorer.

Tom’s 1949 GP Replica has a very interesting history …

Tom obtained this motorcycle from Dale Baston of Vancouver, Canada as a running, track ready bike. Dale is an avid collector of both vintage motorcycles and cars and raced this bike at the famed Westwood Race Track in the Vancouver area before it was closed down in the mid-1990’s.
Dale had purchased this machine in 1987 from John Gilham of England, who had originally built it into a GP Replica in the early 1980’s. John started with a Tiger 100 frame and gearbox, a sprung hub rear
wheel, a genuine GP front hub and because he was able to find the correct engine and chassis parts, he was able to turn the project into a respectable GP replica. This bike was documented in an article in the summer 1988 edition of “Classic Racer” magazine (p. 55) that chronicled the story of John building this replica and finding a genuine GP.

Tom was thrilled to find this replica and it started him on a journey of Triumph GP education and discovery. Tom describes his excitement about the GP this way … “My objective was that, even though it is a replica, I wanted to find as many correct and original parts as possible to turn this machine into an accurate example of the Grand Prix model and preserve the history of these rare Triumph race bikes.”

As a result of Tom’s dedication to correctness and attention to detail, this bike has been completely restored from the ground up to make it one of the finest Grand Prix replicas available."

So, fun fact, Racers who completed circuits at the Brooklands race track doing a whole lap "Over the ton" meaning 100mph+ got a special award "Gold Star". BSA went on to build their race bikes called Gold stars and I collect those too. Early ones were rigid as well. But I think I made my point... If some codger can lap a vintage track in the 1940s with a springer front end, Or early clunker hydraulic front end & rigid frame and post consistent 100 mph + times,, I think you can tool on down the highway on a rigid chopper-bobber if its done right.

Lets not overlook Nortons,,, they really have a racing pedigree,, lapping the Isle of Man at over the ton on one of these?

[confab]

If some codger can lap a vintage track in the 1940s with a springer front end, Or early clunker hydraulic front end & rigid frame and post consistent 100 mph + times,, I think you can tool on down the highway on a rigid chopper-bobber if its done right.

Interesting!

Thanks for the post.

[oneuptom]

I was heading back home to AZ on my new 06 Dyna from WA state and not too far into AZ 0n I-40 when I noticed this old scoot pass in front of me on an overpass. Next thing I know he's beside me on an old ratty Knuck. We nod and ride together for a bit then start screwing off with roll on's. At 90 mph plus he keeps pulling away like I'm standing still, grinning. My speedo was saying 110 at times and he was leaving me behind every time we rolled on. We did this for about 60 miles before he pulled off. If you were to see his bike parked you'd think it'd be lucky to hit 70. He looked pretty relaxed like the bike was plenty safe