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  1. #81
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    PS: Hospital occupancy rates are an interesting topic. As it happens, I was looking into this a few days ago.

    The dataset I saw says occupancy rates haven't fallen below 65% since the early seventies. Which doesn't mean the 60's were better, it was just as far back as the data went.

    Something else that is interesting about the Hospital Business (and it is a business) is that you and some rich pals can't necessarily just pool your capital together and start a Hospital, no matter WHAT the occupancy rates of the surrounding hospitals in the local market are.

    Which sounds like bullshit, right? I mean, it's healthcare and we have a "free market" and blah, blah, and it undoubtedly helps people.. So why the fuck not?

    Well, in most areas (And particularly urban and urban metro areas) there are state requirements that prevent this. It is called a "Certificate of need" and you have to have one not only before you can open a hospital, but they will tell you where you can open your hospital. If it is permitted at all.

    There are many arguments used to rationalize this practice and some of them may even have some merit, but the obvious result is we can easily be caught short on hospital beds, facilities and the medical devices they contain in the event of an emergency. Which was the entire impetuous behind the lockdowns and "15 days to bend the curve" in the first place.

    It was a bandaid to get around the lack of available hospital beds, personnel and devices which has plagued the US for decades and decades now.

    So, the problem is not new and it remains mostly unaddressed. Even now.

  2. #82
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    Dooms, sorry to hear about you mother, hope everything turns out well. I think your situation has a lot of other factors. My friend went the the ER Saturday with chest pains, Did a Cath. on Monday and inserted a stint, out on Tuesday. I visited him on Sunday, 1/2 the CCU was empty.

  3. #83
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    Meanwhile, back at the ranch..


    This is Joe Biden’s America.

    40% of illegal aliens being bused to Laredo, Texas have tested positive for Covid-19.

    The Washington Examiner reported:

    The city of Laredo, Texas, has refused to take in migrants who have been bused in from elsewhere on the border after discovering 40% of them tested positive for the coronavirus, according to two local government officials... Meanwhile Joe Biden is blaming rising Covid cases on unvaccinated Americans.
    Be sure to get your vaccine, now.

    You hear? lol.
    Last edited by confab; 08-13-2021 at 11:20 AM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBuggy View Post
    Yesterday evening my elderly mother was taken to the hospital with a non-covid emergency. She had to wait almost 4 hours to even see a nurse. Then another 2 hours for lab tests to come back. Finally she was put on a gurney and parked in the hall overnight because there were no beds. This is at a large Phoenix hospital!

    Why were there no beds, because the stupid mother fuckers who think they know best and refuse to get vaccinated are filling them all up. The Dr said almost without exception the people being ventilated are those who did not get vaccinated. So you all just ride your high horse, think it can't happen to you, and make sure you leave your bike to someone with a shred of common sense.

    Fucking dumb asses!
    Harry, i'm sorry for your loss.

  5. #85
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    She is still with us, just stuck in a hospital hallway waiting for a bed. They say she will recover but it was closer then any of us would like.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomBuggy View Post
    She is still with us, just stuck in a hospital hallway waiting for a bed. They say she will recover but it was closer then any of us would like.
    Phew! Glad to hear it. Fingers crossed for a quick recovery.

  7. #87
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    Wife had surgery in February, they released her at midnight after surgery because there were no beds to stay due to covid. She had to go back in April due to infection and spent the night in the ER, again covid patience fillled the beds. She is scheduled for another surgery in September that requires ICU recovery, we both fear it will be postponed if numbers keep climbing.

  8. #88
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    Re: individual experiences vs overviews, the plural of anecdote is not data and the far higher risk activities (motorcycling among them) we take for granted greatly exceed the real but trivially small (humans suck at numerical comparisons) risks of vaccination.

    Everything has a mortality rate including inaction.

  9. #89
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    Common Sense is finally bubbling to the surface....take a listen, it's only 5 minutes:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...?ocid=msedgntp

  10. #90
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    I was talking to one of my old co-workers and apparently there is talk in the private insurance industry about excluding covid hospital care for the non-vaccinated. They want it to fall under the self inflicted danger clause some private policies have. It will not affect government policies like medicaid or VA care, but private policies have a much broader leeway and much bigger political donors to keep regulators at bay.

    Probably water-cooler BS, but makes one think.

  11. #91
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    Sounds like BS, particularly since the FDA hasn't even given final approval nor do I think you can "mandate" medical procedures.

  12. #92
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    Insurance company actuaries study facts because profits are too important to be left to emotion.

    https://medika.life/vaccinate-or-pay...ine-hesitancy/

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...ealth-coverage

    Customers are of course free to choose other insurance and not rely on employer-provided policies. Employers could easily be financially devastated by workplace outbreaks like those which hammered the meat packing industry.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN26M5V0

    The poultry industry got smart and more heavily automated. The meat industry should do likewise because the fewer immigrant bottom feeders it employs the better for the US. Americans don't want those jobs so those jobs should not exist. They qualify as the "dull, dirty and dangerous" tasks best automated. Dry up jobs and there will be less need for border control. Lack of workers is helping the push:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...r-big-chickens

  13. #93
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    Democracy is overrated anyway and self determination is stupid. Freedom was always a concept too abstract to have any quantifiable value in practice.

    I think insurance companies should mandate every aspect of human existence and I completely welcome micromanagement of my life by our new corporate overlords.

    Sig Heil! Or whatever.

  14. #94
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    That's not what I said. I merely pointed out their logic and economic reality, both of which are relevant. Insurors have vastly more direct access to information than either of us ever will. If they don't make informed choices it's their ass on the line. There is more to being informed at their level than reading Fox News or Fecesbook and big data is worth billions.

    Just don't get vaxxed and there is no problem since you can choose not to participate in any company requiring vaccination and become self-employed if not so already. Capitalism offers choices. Insurors have little reason to care what you want but you're free to self-pay or choose other companies should one not suit your desires. In capitalism we vote with our wallets.

    Meantime the adults running civilization have to deal with real problems not theoretical problems. Their real problems include the example of very expensive workplace disruption which affects consumer meat prices (you can opt out by going vegetarian). While you are free not to care about that they're free not to care about what you want.

    Freedom works both ways. The economy must and will function. Investors and the CEOs they hire are (generally) free to dictate or influence large corporate policy to mitigate losses. Small business owners likewise. Insurors are free to underwrite or not depending on risk assessment. If the market boycotts them based on their vaccination-related policies other businesses will adapt or arise to follow the money. However the highly informed money managers who make US capitalism work (Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and Wells Fargo are examples) are mandating vaccination because an infected workplace could literally cost them billions. Those not wanting to work for them are free to jump ship.

    Tyson Foods would not spend money if it didn't have to (and has been found to violate labor laws, they're far from altruistic) but after study chose mandatory vaccination. Those not wanting it are free to find other employment as NC is an "employment at will" state (not to be confused with "right to work" though NC is that, too).

    https://www.newsobserver.com/news/bu...253316178.html

    Plant shutdowns are more expensive than prevention:

    https://www.newsobserver.com/news/co...242625836.html

    It is long established law

    https://casetext.com/case/henning-ja...-massachusetts

    reaffirmed by Justice Barrett (who is a cherrypicked, highly Conservative "Constitutional Originalist"

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...e-court-419219

    who understands law is not a matter of ephemeral passion) who declined to block the Indiana State vaccine mandate, that institutions can mandate vaccines. Customers can freely opt not to attend same.

    If you want others to do your will then make a compelling economic and/or legal case for them to expose themselves to greater economic risk in return for that reward.
    That will require a thoughtfully reasoned argument based on evidence, logic, reason, legal precedent (including understanding why that matters) and cost, benefit and liability analysis.

  15. #95
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    You will of course pardon me for not just blindly assuming the almighty dollar is enough to keep corporate America working in my best interest?


    The insurance industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the world for a reason: They don't want to pay anything.

    They lose money when they pay claims. It goes on the red side of the ledger. They became greedy. So, at some point, reasonable people had to come together and lay down some ground rules for them.

    And big Pharma recently had a revelation that defies hundreds of years of human experience, when they discovered that opium isn't addictive.

    It's true. China and the opium wars were an aberration or something. That was all stupid and they didn't want to talk about it. Opium isn't addictive and then they got our government to agree with this new consensus. It was then prescribed like Pez with absolutely ZERO adult oversight from the geniuses in Pharma or The Beltway "Experts" and, we can see the result.

    Why did this happen?

    Because drug companies make money selling drugs.

    You know, perhaps this reaction is to be expected? "Elite" used to mean "better"

    When you're nothing but a bunch of gilded fuck ups, who also happen to be hopelessly corrupt? Maybe it isn't a such a surprise that Main Street wants to see a little science before signing on with your latest endeavor?

  16. #96
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    PS: I really don't mean to sound negative, though.

    America was founded on the idea of sucking Wall Street's dick. Didn't Benjamin Franklin say something about people who don't love corporate cock or balls deserve neither?

    I'm all for it.

    What great crisis should the sober adults there solve next for us?

    Obesity, perhaps? That would result in a major boost to profits and productivity, and it would save major dollars for insurance companies. (Who are Wall Street)

    What a win that would be. Who would oppose corporations mandating something like that?

  17. #97
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    I did not contend the almighty dollar kept bigcorps working in the best general interest but provided examples where corporate and public interests dovetail i.e. not spreading disease. That's using facts, logic and reason. Tyson for example have demonstrated awareness of every economic interest in cost reduction. They understand disease as that's key to survival in their extremely competitive market. That begs the question why informed, proven competent businessmen would want something useless or worse when if it were useless or worse they would be exposed to liability and lawsuits for promoting it.

    For what logical reason should they support spread of disease among their own workforce? They take every measure to reduce it in their livestock because biosecurity is vital to public perception is vital to sales. Did the COVID disruptions to their workforce and food production for the public not happen? Did the hospitals, doctors and patients make the whole thing up? Did the dead commit suicide?

    The American people dislike science and are with the exception of the technically educated are scientifically illiterate. Their history is one of resisting empirical evidence despite living in the richest nation in history whose wealth including theirs was built on science and engineering. Just teaching the theory of evolution in schools took a prolonged battle against superstition because Americans dislike evidence but love feelings. Main Street wants affirmation not science. Main street has a 100 IQ on a good day and primary education in the US is a global joke. There is a wide world outside big pharma and there is zero excuse for not knowing that.

    I did not contend bigcorps inherently want what's in everyone's public interest so consider rereading what I wrote instead of what you assumed I meant. It was abundantly clear. The example you gave was one of bigcorps disregarding facts and evidence in favor of marketing on which they were eventually called out using facts and evidence. Americans capable of using facts, logic and reason busted them!

    BTW opiates work fine when used by competent adult pain patients. I've been on them for many years, periodically perform a test withdrawal, and the chronic pain from multiple nerve impingements is far worse than the mild withdrawal symptoms. However I'm not a piece of gutless flyover country inbred human garbage with nothing better to do than get shitfaced until I managed socially acceptable slow suicide. Junkies like drunks become what they are because they choose weakness and self-pity, but even the arguably most famous junkie in history, William S. Burroughs, was able to walk away when he got bored of it. Bubba and Methany want someone to blame for being degenerate but quitting only requires self-mastery (proven by the self-mastery of those who quit). Too bad they don't croak sooner and make the US a cleaner place. It's not like they'd be anything but shit if they were sober. Their shittiness greatly inconveniences good citizens who aren't junkies and for all the monitoring appointments it's cost me I'd be delighted if every junkie dropped dead this minute.

    Single examples of corporate malfeasance do not invalidate the entire system, Should I have rejected the MRI technology which located my back/neck/shoulder damage then the surgery and the drugs which made the surgery possible? How about cataract lens replacement which is also heavily marketed but nearly always successful? Should I have rejected empiric proofs that the opiates I ended up on after everything else failed worked because incompetents become junkies and end up sucking cock behind a dumpster for Chinese Fentanyl? It's hardly my fault Methany and LaQueefa pissed away their opportunities in favor of loserdom. They certainly suffered from some incompetent pill pushing by their own unethical retarded greedy hick doctors without whom the ones who became addicted would have had less (legal) access but have they no duty to learn anything themselves? If not why not?

    Do facts and evidence suddenly become irrelevant because there are some corporate examples of callous disregard for facts and evidence? Facts don't care about feelings and the facts of the COVID situation are not part of the opiate so-called crisis (the body count is trivial among trivial losers no one should miss, but media gonna hype the crisis du jour).

    Is there no duty to oneself to learn how to distinguish between facts and propaganda? What did I list that is not supportable? I notice you ignored my contention and chose a straw man instead. This is not about Purdue and opiates. It's a global issue subject to scrutiny by every regime including enemies of the US. You don't address what I wrote directly. Why is that?

    Why did Russia, China, mutual enemy Shia and Sunni oil states, Israel, Switzerland, the Nordic countries, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also embrace vaccination? Why do Americans ignore that reality?

    What makes the least educated with the least knowledge, little knowledge of how to use logic and reason, and least direct medical and scientific experience correct vs. those who proved their expertise over decades of accomplishment making modern medicine so highly effective? Purdue marketroids pushed some pills to inbreds too stupid to escape flyover country so none of that matters? Adults who refuse to learn how to sort ideas get what they deliberately signed up for. The same people can recite football stats or what toenail polish some celebrity they adore uses. (The sports and fashion industries make billions giving them silly shit they demand.) Their adult choices are their fault and not excusable unless they don't know how to read due to learning disability.

    There was a time when Americans expected more of themselves and worked at self-improvement. That was a cultural choice. Home economics textbooks from the turn of the 20th century are written at what would be college level today. The oppressed risked getting shot to attend better schools, but their descendants do drive bys instead. The "elites" didn't make those choices for them. They did and do. Meanwhile immigrants and their descendants from motivated cultures rocket through our institutions of higher learning and excel throughout the economy. Americans didn't have suckage thrust upon them, they lapped it up greedily and because pride is the first refuge of ignorance they're actually proud of the shit they became.

    It's easy to troll and manipulate them by THEIR choice. They got what they deserve for their civic duty failure and blame others for their chosen faults.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post
    I did not contend the almighty dollar kept bigcorps working in the best general interest but provided examples where corporate and public interests dovetail i.e. not spreading disease. That's using facts, logic and reason.
    Yeah, that's fabulous.. Except for hundreds of years of evidence to the contrary.

    We could all name a long list of examples of corporate greed getting in the way of the public good. We even used to have a name for this. It was "Robber Barons"

    And even that assumes the most benign motivations for their behavior. (Profit) It is a charitable assessment compared to the alternative, which is government pressuring them to act. Which is a distinct possibility.

    We've seen this a lot recently. It is used to do everything from evade 4th amendment protections to influencing the direction of Big Tech.

    Beyond that, who says they're right? I don't trust the experts at Tyson (LOL!) to deliver cutting edge medical advice to me. Why would I? There's a long, long, L-O-N-G list of stupid decisions made by corporations. Their medical expertise isn't above scrutiny, regardless how they arrived at it.

    Tyson for example have demonstrated awareness of every economic interest in cost reduction. They understand disease as that's key to survival in their extremely competitive market. That begs the question why informed, proven competent businessmen would want....
    Okay, okay..

    Ya know.. If you wanna base your healthcare decision on a Chicken Company? That's fine with me.

    I don't care.


    The American people dislike science and are with the exception of the technically educated are scientifically illiterate. Their history is one of resisting empirical evidence despite living in the richest nation in history whose wealth including theirs was built on science and engineering. Just teaching the theory of evolution in schools took a prolonged battle against superstition because Americans dislike evidence but love feelings. Main Street wants affirmation not science. Main street has a 100 IQ on a good day and primary education in the US is a global joke. There is a wide world outside big pharma and there is zero excuse for not knowing that.
    Obviously, everyone is a total moron incapable of understanding complex things.. Like ratios. Which REALLY ARE nothing but the Devil's Calculator. They're unknowable! Who could hope to understand something this arcane? Perhaps it is black magic?

    But I agree, and I've often said I was insanely jealous of places like China and North Korea.. Cuba.. Etc.. Who have an enlightened genius class to make these decisions for them and make them quickly because there is no need to consult the inferior classes about any matter of importance.

    If you could couple that kind of autocratic speed and wisdom with the genius of our Chicken Companies? I think you'd have a new model for government that nobody could beat.

    I did not contend bigcorps inherently want what's in everyone's public interest so consider rereading what I wrote instead of what you assumed I meant. It was abundantly clear. The example you gave was one of bigcorps disregarding facts and evidence in favor of marketing on which they were eventually called out using facts and evidence. Americans capable of using facts, logic and reason busted them!
    Yeah, and that is what is missing from this discussion.. Facts, logic and reason.

    One very interesting fact is that we don't even know how many people have died from Covid.

    There's numbers all over the place. Wild guesses. We also obviously don't know much about these vaccines because the narratives and the facts surrounding them are ever changing. We know the normal testing process was aborted and they were prescribed under emergency use. Ironically, I'm not scared of the vaccines at all. If I was, I wouldn't have procured them for my father. But we are not setting good precedents here. That is my primary objection.

    I'd say we've set a lot of poor precedents with the Cv19 outbreak. What we've done and the cost associated with it deserves careful scrutiny.

    BTW opiates work fine when ... Edited for length.
    Obviously that was a recent and well known example of the "adult" leadership in government and corporate America you were alluding to. It was completely absent. That was my point.


    It's a global issue subject to scrutiny by every regime including enemies of the US. You don't address what I wrote directly. Why is that?

    Why did Russia, China, mutual enemy Shia and Sunni oil states, Israel, Switzerland, the Nordic countries, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also embrace vaccination? Why do Americans ignore that reality?
    Frankly, because they're terrified and the Cv19 epidemic has been completely overblown.

    For the very young, their CV19 mortality rate rounds to zero. Mine is about three tenths of one percent.

    You talk about people being stupid and you make appeals to the authority of Chicken Companies. But somehow? I think my odds are pretty good in spite of this.

    Give my apologies to the medical experts at Tyson.

    Adults who refuse to learn how to sort ideas get what they deliberately signed up for. The same people can recite football stats or what toenail polish some celebrity they adore uses. (The sports and fashion industries make billions giving them silly shit they demand.) Their adult choices are their fault and not excusable unless they don't know how to read due to learning disability.

    There was a time when Americans expected more of themselves and worked at self-improvement. That was a cultural choice. Home economics textbooks from the turn of the 20th century are written at what would be college level today. The oppressed risked getting shot to attend better schools, but their descendants do drive bys instead. The "elites" didn't make those choices for them. They did and do. Meanwhile immigrants and their descendants from motivated cultures rocket through our institutions of higher learning and excel throughout the economy. Americans didn't have suckage thrust upon them, they lapped it up greedily and because pride is the first refuge of ignorance they're actually proud of the shit they became.

    It's easy to troll and manipulate them by THEIR choice. They got what they deserve for their civic duty failure and blame others for their chosen faults.
    So, if you're a gigantic lard ass with a dozen comorbidities, I have to take a vaccine because of your poor choices?


    Children do also? All this crap about self determination and Methany and Bubba and their poor choices and how they don't deserve to be protected from them because they're stupid and worthless life that should be disregarded out of hand by any sane or rational person left.. But.. I have to pay for it?

    Interesting concept. Sounds like it goes a lot of places. You sure that's how you want to run our country and our society?

    lol.

  19. #99
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    I'd vote for Farmall. The clue is in the words, you just have to read them.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoghead View Post
    The clue is in the words, you just have to read them.
    Which ones?

    Be specific.

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