Sportster Transmission Issue Question

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  • BlackCloudSalvage
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2015
    • 631

    #16
    Had a breakthrough and learning experience today. I spent over an hour standing over the trans rotating it and trying to make sense of things. At first I thought I was looking at it in 1st when really it was in 5th and visa versa, and was totally looking at everything all wrong, including the pictorial in the manual. Well, once I started seeing this correctly I was able to take a better look at the actual gear in question and indeed it is rounded more than any of the others.

    Pictured here in the Neutral position, gear #3's dogs are rounded as well as the female recessed areas of gear #1 that mate with #3's dogs.
    Now I can see what would be happening and was kind of able to simulate it by not getting 1st gear all the way clicked in and rotating the countershaft while holding the gears on the mainshaft. I can only imagine what the actual force of the motor would do. However I still believe the shifter had something to do with not getting them seated together well and allowing for less engagement. I did notice that whatever shift fork is meshing 2 gears/dogs together for a particular gear position, that shift fork has the most allowable slop/movement side to side due to the pattern in the shift drum. So the gears can be anywhere from fully seating inside one another to only having a little less than an 1/8" engagement. This of course is worse when you have the male in the already smoother rounded female receptacle as opposed to the 2 male dogs engaging as in some gear selections. Now I see why some people talk about putting springs on the forks to pull them in together. So, now I gotta decide if getting the shifter pawl/detent plate setup correctly will be enough to fix it or if I should replace these two gears.

    Anyhow, you guys nailed it. Thanks for working with me. More to follow.

    0218201245

    Comment

    • JBinNC
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2018
      • 2707

      #17
      If you have gears with rounded off dogs, replace them. Cheap insurance against future serious damage. A dragging clutch could be a contributor to the problem.

      Jim

      Comment

      • BlackCloudSalvage
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2015
        • 631

        #18
        Yeah, I know I better replace them. I will.

        As far as dragging clutch, help me understand how that would contribute. So dragging would mean that as you pull the clutch lever in the motor is still driving the main shaft. How's that any different than it just being in gear? Would it make the gears chatter back an forth or something?

        Comment

        • JBinNC
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2018
          • 2707

          #19
          Say you have a dragging clutch and persist in crunching it into first gear every time you get ready to go. Pretty soon the dogs are chipped up and getting rounded off and then it wants to jump out of gear. The dogs in a five speed aren't very deep.

          Jim

          Comment

          • BlackCloudSalvage
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 631

            #20
            Gotcha

            Comment

            • BlackCloudSalvage
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2015
              • 631

              #21
              Holy cow! Just a short while searching I've seen that these gear are not cheap new ($90-$130 per) and are hard to find good used ones on ebay either. I did see a whole trans for $200 but....who knows what that thing will look like when it arrives. Do y'all think I need to replace both countershaft gears or just the one with the male dogs?

              Comment

              • JBinNC
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2018
                • 2707

                #22
                I would replace both the moving gear and the one it dogs into. Could you post pics of the gear dogs so the rest of us can see for ourselves what you are dealing with? (I'm channeling Tattooo asking for pics.)

                Also, is the shift fork worn on its faces?

                Jim

                Comment

                • BlackCloudSalvage
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2015
                  • 631

                  #23
                  I will take and post pics by tomorrow morning. The shift forks looked like they had what I would call normal wear, but could definitely use a 2nd opinion. They have a gold color and just seem to have wear on there faces (front/side) but nothing gouged or burred up or anything.

                  Comment

                  • TriNortchopz
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2017
                    • 3245

                    #24
                    Been looking around for technical info on the 5-speed trans; found what may be helpful, might be a factory manual, but with Classic Cycles name on it, in pdf; starting on page 4 of this is Chapter 9 of a manual for 1991-2003 Sportster 5-speed transmission:
                    If buildin' old school choppers was easy, anyone could do it... ain't nobody said it's gonna be easy...

                    Comment

                    • farmall
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2013
                      • 9976

                      #25
                      That one's aftermarket but this 1998



                      is factory. Note the cover style, part number and click in a few pages to get a feel for the distinctive layout HD use.

                      The site has a wide selection and no malware. Its revenue comes from Google captcha like many sites.

                      I recommend downloading anything you might use because no website is permanent.

                      Comment

                      • BlackCloudSalvage
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2015
                        • 631

                        #26
                        Thank you all for the links. I do have a factory manual but yes it doesn't go to deep into specs for wear on trans.

                        So I took another look at the transmission this morning inside on the kitchen table under some light. I still don't have the shafts disassembled but I can show you a pretty good look from here.

                        I have posted pics that show you the worn gear dogs on countershaft gear 3 and the mating area on countershaft gear 1 that 3 dogs into. I also Have shown a pic to show the extremes of the level of engagement between these two gears. One pic shows them fully mated and the other is while they are least engaged with me pushing the shift fork over side to side. Of course this is with the trans out and the shaft and drums only supported on the access door side.

                        0219200921a
                        0219200921
                        0219200915
                        0219200919a

                        Another set of pics show the shift fork pin in the drum slot that guides the fork which positions countershaft gears 1 and 3. One pic shows the pin sitting in the pocket at the bottom as it would be while the trans is in first gear. Here you can see there is free play/slop side to side as opposed to the pic of the same pin in a different area of the slot where there it fits nicely without slop.

                        0219200952
                        0219200952a

                        Finally pics to give an idea of what the wear on the shifter fork faces generally look like. When I looked yesterday I just thought they were milled like that to fit in the gear slot, now I see that this is probably worn down. You can see the line on the face, that is definitely a step you can catch your fingernail on. Also one fork (fork closest to the transmission access door) is rounded on the trailing edge of the face/sidewall.

                        0219200949a
                        0219200950b

                        Comment

                        • JBinNC
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2018
                          • 2707

                          #27
                          With a micrometer or caliper you can measure that shift fork and compare to the others to determine how much wear.

                          Does the extra width in the slot on the shift drum allow the gears to come out of engagement, or go deeper? It looks to me that the wear allows the gears to disengage. If so, you need a shift drum. You might get away with replacing only the gear with the male dogs from the looks of the pictures.

                          Jim

                          Comment

                          • BlackCloudSalvage
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2015
                            • 631

                            #28
                            The slop in the drum slot definitely allows for decrease in engagement of gears. Like the pic shows above I can be fully engaged or have a little less than 1/8" of engagement or anywhere in between. Base on the wear and slippage it seems as though there is a tendency for the gear/fork to float to the less engagement condition. Even with the dog rounded off a bit I'm convinced that if the male dog gear was held in full engagement position it would still have plenty of bite to not skip out. So looks like i definitely need a new drum. New gear and possibly forks although I don't think the wear there is the real culprit.

                            Comment

                            • BlackCloudSalvage
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 631

                              #29
                              Well...considering you can't find a good used countershaft gear 1 or 3 on ebay and such ( guess they are commonly worn out) and single new gear is $90+ I was able to score what seems to be a solid entire used trans assembly for $150 on eBay. Claims to have had 9k on it. Looks real good. Great edges on the dogs. Turns nicely thru all gears on the bench and in the bike so far. Haven't fired it up yet. Still notice the level of engagement of those 2 gears can be somewhat variable on the bench. But....definitely better engagement on this assembly. Gonna make sure shifter and clutch are adjusted proper then give it a go. To be continued.

                              Comment

                              • 70fatster
                                Member
                                • Jan 2013
                                • 95

                                #30
                                That dog has been beat! And so has the female portion. The flat surface on them is actually angled to pull the gears together tighter under load, and when you count both sides you are missing a lot of that surface. To me the drum groove looks fine, I believe there should be some slop there to allow the fork to float in the the gear groove and not drag when the gears are pulled together. The fork is toast in my opinion, it should be shiny where the gear rides, but shouldn't be cut into like yours is.
                                I wonder if it ran low on oil. I bet that gear with the bad dogs wobbles on its shaft also, not good.

                                Comment

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