How do Springers Ride?

[BlackCloudSalvage]

Seen some decent priced nice looking springer front ends for sale lately online. Like old W&W and an old harley one. They look really cool but im curious how they ride? The ones I'd be interested in are short stock length style on stock rake rigid frame. Never been a big fan of really long sprinters but id like to try one out someday. Looks fun when people bounce that front wheel on a long raked bike.

Are they just for looks or period correct applications or is it a good fun ride?

[BlackCloudSalvage]

This one for $900

[Tattooo]

I love mine...... Both of them........

[AlbertaFarmer]

$900 seems like a fairly reasonable price for that W&W. It's a very nice front end.

I've yet to ride a springer, but I've got an OEM softail one squirreled away for my next project. Plenty of people put big miles on with them. I can't imagine it being too bad of a ride. I've even heard some people say better than tubes if properly set up and maintained.

Tattoo, I've said it before and I will say it again, beautiful machines.

[Tattooo]

Tattoo, I've said it before and I will say it again, beautiful machines.

Thank you!!!!!!!!

[TriNortchopz]

I love mine...... Both of them........

That Knuck of your's with the raked Harman girder is a beauty:

Original Harman girder patent drawing:

[TriNortchopz]

Never ran a short springer, just a +18 Jammer with a raked frame for 10 years; with the extra set of internal springs, it didn't pogo that much, and it rode pretty good on shit Northern roads they call highways:


Bought this A65 with +25 springer; never finished it; sold it to my bro and he ran it for a couple years - that was more flex than spring

[Tattooo]

That Knuck of your's with the raked Harman girder is a beauty:

I don't think he called it a girder as he made them also.....

But what ever it was called it's the BEST by far, front end that I have ridden, Ever!!! It has NO flop and no bounce what so ever.....

[Tattooo]

Bought this A65 with +25 springer; never finished it; sold it to my bro and he ran it for a couple years - that was more flex than spring

Man that was a beauty...... It's a real shame that you never finished it.....

[TriNortchopz]

I don't think he called it a girder as he made them also.....

But what ever it was called it's the BEST by far, front end that I have ridden, Ever!!! It has NO flop and no bounce what so ever.....

Couple of good reads here on Bill Holland and John Harman's internal sprung girder:

The History of Bill Holland and Executive Choppers
"John Harman and Harry Holland started a company called H & H Cycle where I, Bill Holland, was the only employee. John Harman came up with a design for an internal spring girder.
H & H started building the front end and I had a big involvement in making the parts and John doing the welding and my brother, Harry doing machine work. After working out all the details of manufacturing the front end, H & H started the procedure of patenting the front end and in May of 1973 the Harman Front End was patented. A year later..."

http://www.executivechoppers.com/about.html


John Harmon’s Legacy
The Holland and Harman connection
"...As many of you know the Harman frames and front end assemblies introduced to the custom market in the early 70's were some of the finest quality and most functional pieces ever offered. Frames including custom Harley swing arm frames were available for virtually any machine and the unique internally sprung girders were probably the best handling and shock absorbing girders you could buy..."

https://www.hotbikeweb.com/john-harmons-legacy#page-6

[TriNortchopz]

Man that was a beauty...... It's a real shame that you never finished it.....

I was running a shop, had lots of bikes and chops and custom builds for customers...he had another A65 chop with a twistrail Butts springer, so the fit was good.

[Hatchet54]

the pictures in this thread are making me sweat

[Tattooo]

Original Harman girder patent drawing:

You know something Tri, As long as I've had this front end and as a nice as it rides I can't believe it was never copied by someone?????? Hell they copy everything else.........

It is made incredibly well........

[TriNortchopz]

I did see one copy recently; I think it was on the Choppers Planet or the Longfork Choppers fb site...it was close, but the area near the trees caught my attention as just a bit different...guy in Europe built it himself.

[Tattooo]

I did see one copy recently; I think it was on the Choppers Planet or the Longfork Choppers fb site...it was close, but the area near the trees caught my attention as just a bit different...guy in Europe built it himself.

Glad someone tried..... I'm still astounded that is wasn't mass produced during the chopper rebirth...........

[rockman96]

I love mine...... Both of them........

Those are gorgeous bikes tattooo! I'm especially drawn to the short bike...

I did see one copy recently; I think it was on the Choppers Planet or the Longfork Choppers fb site...it was close, but the area near the trees caught my attention as just a bit different...guy in Europe built it himself.

I was reading through old threads about a year ago, and some young fellow was making copies of the Harmon internally sprung girder. IIRC he was catching some flak for 'copying' the design. Anyway, his profile here indicated we is not active here anymore, and I think his website link was shut down. Shame, if you ask me.

ETA: Just did a search and found the thread:
http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showth...ghlight=harmon

[TriNortchopz]

Glad someone tried..... I'm still astounded that is wasn't mass produced during the chopper rebirth...........

Well it was reborn, and is mass produced, by the original guy, Bill Holland, who in 2003 dusted off his old tools, did a re-design, and opened up his new shop Executive Choppers;

"In the early 80's as the length and style changed the demand to run long front ends declined and gave me the break I needed. I started building weightlifting equipment and owned a World Gym in 1986. After that I started manufacturing high end hand forged stair railings. Through the years I’ve had friends and customers who knew my reputation as a bike builder and wanted me to do work for them.
In 2003, with the encouragement of my wife and a friend of mine, I pulled the original front end fixture out of storage and began to design a new version of what is now known as “Harman/Holland Internally Sprung Girder™...In 2005, I finished my first prototype chopper with the new front end on it. This bike was totally built by Bill and includes..."

http://www.executivechoppers.com/about.html

[Whoremonger]

In my opinion they are good up to 65-70 mph. But then, also in my opinion, oem hardtails are good only to 70 mph max. After that not fun.

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

I have never rode or tried a Harmon internally sprung Girder, I have had several Girders I liked, also some really long Springers, Never a shorty or a late model HD softail with one of their damped ones either.

But heres my $0.02. I had a shop and still have a lot of stuff in storage including several girders and Springers. There is ALSO the pile of NOS stuff that got away. (Long story but a friend died and we had a deal for a warehouse full of period chopper stuff, His family was weird so that never materialized. The stuff in there I saw would make a hipster drool, still in the 1970s packaging)

Regardless a project I have not gotten too yet but keep threatening is a photo series of some of my old chop and front ends, some of which are also NOS,, including a sweet Santee.

Most of my stuff is British but I had a lot of HD too. I have some old photos (Still on 35mm print film) of some of the bikes over the years. I cant tell you all the brand names, maybe TNC can ID some with the pictures.

4 different Stock HD springers all lengthened, 2 on Harleys, 2 on Triumphs. I am told they used Radius rods from old cars to lengthen them. They LOOKED cool, and man did they turn heads. But truth is, they rode like *SH*T* in my opinion, Bouncy bouncy pogo-ing. They also weighed a lot, and that much weight did several things, damped the ride a bit, but that much weight off the front of the frame took a lot of getting used to. My opinion on them, more of a poser thing, short rides and look cool. Not for long distance travel unless you are some sort of sadist.
I did several moderate rides on them and call me a Pu**y, but I was beat, whipped and tired after each one and this was years ago when I was in better condition.
One ride, Big Pat was on his Evo Air ride suspension Police bike Evo HD and I was on the Triumph with that Springer. I kept yelling to slow down as he glided along at 70 mph with ease,, While I was bouncing and pogo'ing and having a hard time keeping up, especially when we hit some construction zones. Plus, despite loctite, tabs, and safety wire shit kept coming loose and we had to stop several times to re-attach stuff. We had fun, but man, that was a ordeal.

( I had fitted a small drum brake, useless for real stopping but very handy gently applied coming to a stop as well as a stop light or hill holder. It takes skill to ride with it because you use mostly the rear brake and learn how to use the front brake, if you hammer the front brake the whole bike tries to fold in half, the springer compresses and does a bucking bronco at the rodeo impression, You learn quickly how NOT to do that)

I bought another extend-o HD springer at a swap meet a few years ago at a vintage club meet, the price was really good, and I have some cool frames. A grey beard was freaking out over it and I had already purchased it. I recognized the dude as a long time regular and not some wheeler-dealer type. He wanted it bad! He also had a period Knuck chopper and it was the piece he truly needed to complete it. I had a moral dilemma, Long story, but we all went away happy. I also kicked a few bucks back to the seller as he sold it was under price.

I had a couple long after market Springers on bikes, still have a few more in storage,. Same deal but some differences in construction. Some were really heavy some lighter. One I have,, I think is too light duty for anything other than a small-light bike so its going on a 500 Triumph chop. It has virtually zero miles but had hung in a workshop prior to me where some chemicals were used (Industrial machine shop and truck maint) So I powder coated it. I have no idea how to grade them but the rocker design sure seems to make a difference, That Sugar Bear guy has it figured out but I dont like the looks of his rockers. But I rode a few where we tried different rocker designs and it makes a difference.
I will say, quality varies. Some ran no bushes or bearings (Crap) others ran bushes but worn out and sloppy and it sure helped to replace those or swap in needle bearings. On the rockers, I believe Needle bearings are best but research what you are installing.

I have had 4 girders and still have 1. One, on my old Triumph 67 Chop I know was a Durfee. It had issues and we rebuilt it. Decent but still pogo-ed. I lean a little more towards Girders than Springers if you DO ride, the Springers have an iconic style, but the Girders if set up right in my opinion ride slightly better.

Now, the BEST ones I ever rode, didnt belong to me, and I wish I could go back and buy some. Look in old period Jammer chopper catalogs (I have 3 catalogs from the 1980s) and they had springers and girders with small shock absorbers fitted besides the spring(s). Some ran dual shocks, some single and they had some with no shocks. My understanding was they were not universally popular because of the image/cool factor and shocks back then in that small size were not great quality/perf. Retro fitting a modern Hi-po shock should be transformational. But my impression was if you rode them hard and fast, the shocks damper fluid overheated and lost effectiveness, but if you putted along on a nice cruise style ride they worked great.
I want to retro fit something like that to some of mine and want to research what I can use. To me,, thats the ideal setup, Dial in your springs and fit a small unobtrusive shock.

** A note on springs,, MOST Springs on all the front ends I dealt with, I would not rate as a well made performance spring. Spring tech is a long topic, and most fitted to vintage Springers and girders are not made for performance. Secondly,, other than bolting them into place, most people have no idea how to adjust and set up springs.

----------------------------------------
I am curious about modern HDs and their springers, suspension and braking, I have never owned a modern HD with a Springer and never rode any of the replica Taiwan Ted Shorty springers. I once rode a 48 Indian and that was totally cool, and tried out a HD hummer with the rubber bands for a short spin. So thats my input.

**** I posted some old photos of some guys I served with in the military and still do from time to time to try and connect with people I used to know. Neither of these bikes are mine, but if you know the people, have them contact me or PM me.
https://www.rallypoint.com/status-up...rlhash=5135443

Tsgt (Circa 1984) Dale Neidigh, or Ssgt Jason Jetley.
(Jasons Triumph chop was inspirational to me. Fast as hell, He built in the Dorm room at Mt Home AFB and it was so long, they couldnt get it out of the room, even using the guy across the halls room to back & forth. Had to pull the front end back off, and then maneuver it down 3 flights of stairs)

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

Here is another picture, taken mid 1990s. One of my Shop customers and friends, known as Chopper Cindy. I dont think she will mind me posting it here. She was a bad ass chick and would put lots of folks to shame when it came to riding.

For a Springer it rode pretty decent after we made a lot of changes, but not a easy or comfortable bike.

I *THINK* The history of that bike went back to being built as a chop in the 1970s and she owned it off and on, I dont know all the details or years or how many variations it went thru but I heard it got changed up often. She had sold it to a guy I knew and he was having issues with the ignition and some other problems. I sorted it out but at the time it had a HD OEM Springer on it that was lengthened and was too long for the frame/rake. It sat really high in the front and had bad steering flop, was not fun to ride. I had a guy who really wanted the front end to use on a restoration and restored that Springer to stock, I did a deal and installed the one in the picture instead (Unknown brand) but it rode way better and handled decent.

**NOTE THE FRAME SITS NEARLY LEVEL in this pix.

I also did the paint on it as well. Cindy bought it back and had me make some more changes, including a Mikuni carb, better ignition and charging system.

She rode the wheels off that bike. At my shop you could hear her coming with the cocktail shakers on it and miles away thru the curves. Often I had another customer there and I would say "Hear that? Here comes Chopper Cindy" She rode that scoot year round and even in the snow. She drove truck for a living and for a while she didnt own a car, just that chop. She also was good advertising as she told people if you want your bike to run good, take it to Doug. Eventually she had to make changes and move across the US and I sold it for her on this new fangled internet thingy around 1998? Some guy back east bought it and was stoked to get it. I lost track of him but offered free tech support. Hope its still running and being ridden the way it deserves.

It would be cool if the current owner sees this, Love to hear how its doing. It has a LOT of history. (It was not ebay but some motorcycle bulletin board that was popular at the time. We used Forward Air shipping and I built the crate, I have another pix of it right before we closed up the crate, In order to meet dimensions we removed the front end for shipping)


*Edit, I meant to add, that I offered many times to fit a speedo to the scoot and she turned me down every time acted like I was a moron for suggesting it. She always said,, "If I am wondering how fast I am riding I will just count the lines in the road" As a commercial trucker, she had the experience but every time someone heard her say it, they were shocked. As I mentioned, this was one hard core biker chick, I have nothing but respect for her,.