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  1. #1
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    Default Starter Dive Headache .!!! This Bike will drive me to drink .... More !!

    Here's what's going on ....

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    That all of the engagement the bendix is seeing on the clutch drum starter ring gear...

    The bike was built a few years back from after/market parts...
    5 in a 4 tranny, S&S 93 inch Cone Shovel, a nice bike to say the least about it...

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    When I pulled the outer primary cover off to replace the bendix, seen three washers on the jackshaft ...

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    Well, will ya look at that fine job of MICKEY-MOUSE-ing ...!!!

    OK, now to lick somebodyelse's calf here...

    First try was to order a new starter shaft, thinking that the shaft that has been used was from the 65-69 era...
    Ordered a 70 to 84 shaft, it came in, pulled out the shaft that the bike had and, GREAT SCOT .. !!!
    It was the same as the new shaft....

    Alright, now I'm thinking it has to be something is up with the starter .. ???
    Thought perhaps the starter was for the belt final drive models, this bike has a chain final drive.
    Tried for over a week talking with four diff. Fellas at Spyke to ID the starter... Sent lots of photos..
    Wanted them to pull from their stock both starters (Belt & Chain) and get some dimensions....
    Seems that Spyke has no numbers on their starters, zip !!!

    They couldn't help being the factory is across town with no-way to talk to someone that is somewhat a Tech...
    OK .... Now WTF ... !!!

    Talked it over with a tech at Tech Cycle, we came to the conclusion that the starter was for the belt drive models.
    So, with a grain of salt I ordered one from them after getting a Go-ahead from the owner.

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    Kick-ass in a word ... ^^

    It came in today ...
    For a look see to see what the diff. would be on the jackshafts, a little forensic investigation went down...

    Found both to be the same ....

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    Last edited by Dragstews; 10-06-2018 at 9:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    That got me thinking that the inner primary must be at fault ....
    It's not in the best of shape due to the chain eating into it ...

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    Tried to ID it, was made by CCI ... Put in a call to them and was told that it's been years since they made inner primary's for the four speed bikes...

    Well ..... Kiss my Grits ... !!!!

    Without having a world of parts in stock to do a comparison, I feel like I'm .....

    Last edited by Dragstews; 09-13-2018 at 6:10 PM.

  3. #3
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    Dude, I see all kinds of mis-matched shovel era starter setups.
    Multiple thrust washers are no big deal.
    As long as shit lines up lol

    First, make sure the shaft is long enough to not fall out the reduction gear.
    Then look to the top hat spacer (in your first pic).
    We've had to cut the shoulder with certain aftermarket inner and outer primaries. (Remember Lifeline?)

    Note: the belt drive shafts are way longer and have different splines. That match the belt style reduction gear...

  4. #4
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    Lifeline International is still around ....

    Inner Primary Cover FL Precision CNC machined to fit 4-speed FL 1970 thru early 1984 models.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky View Post
    As long as shit lines up lol
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    There's the problem ...
    If I remove two of those washers the starter drive will have more tooth contact, but at a price of the starter shaft not having much foot in the gear reduction ...

    Sky, take a hard look at what's going on in the below photo ...

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    See the chain sawing into the cover .... ???
    ______________________________________________

    Bar-maid ..... Gimme a Bin Laden, Please ..

    How do you make that ?? .. She asks ..

    I tell her with two Shots and a Splash of water ..!!!
    Last edited by Dragstews; 09-13-2018 at 7:09 PM.

  5. #5
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    Would a top hat spacer that didn't allow the shaft through as far be the answer?

    Big trans sprockets, lose/worn chains and short shocks. Primary killers

    I've fit smaller trans and wheel sprockets to increase clearance and keep the same final drive ratio.

    You probably have seen those clip on nylon shoes?
    They cool but do reduce clearance when installed.

  6. #6
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    Here's my thoughts:

    Now that the jackshaft and starter has been verified as being for the 70-84 chain drive models, the only other item in the make up of controlling where the bendix gear makes contact to the clutch drum starter ring gear is the inner primary...

    It has to be the wrong one... Got to be, it's holding the starter away from going in far enough for full tooth contact of the bendix to ring gear...

    Hmmmmmmm.....
    I got an idea ....

    Going to find a Cal-Products C-30B inner and see if that will be the cure...



    Cal-Products Aluminum Inner Primary Covers,
    Fits Big Twins 1970-1982 (rear chain drive models only)



    RE-C30B, is the strongest replacement for failed 1970-1982 OEM inner chain cases.

    This case has an oil drain plug, however all other oiling holes are only center drilled since it is now a popular belief that the OEM design of running your engine oil over your clutch plates and primary chain would cause needless damage. You will have to switch to wet /dry aftermarket clutch plates and follow aftermarket mfg. recommendation for a light oil. Plug the hoses which were leading to and from the chain case. The front 2 outside bolts which bolt to the engine are now too short, our cases are another .280 THICKER. We suggest you run a tap all the way to the bottom of these holes to get clean threads and use as long of a bolt as you can, then washers on the out side to take up the difference.

    IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO LOOSEN THE 5 BOTTOM TRANSMISSION BOLTS BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE CHAIN CASE, AND TIGHTEN THESE LAST OF ALL!

    FAILURE TO DO THIS MAY LEAD TO DISTORTION OR DAMAGE TO YOUR ENGINE CASE.

    We have machined a rectangle to accept the silly and stupid steel oil deflector plate. The square hole will help provide for a better seal and allow you to have something to glue the plate to, rather than depend on those stupid pins.

    The 4 side transmission studs are o.k. even though our chain case is another. 175 thicker at the washer surface and .250 thicker around the bearing than OEM.

    The 4 - 5/16 dia. Engine mount holes and the 4 - 3/8 dia Transmount holes are drilled SMALLER than OEM. We left them small for strength. In the event you have trouble getting them all to line up, slot with a round file.

    The starter mount area on the back of the chaincase is threaded for 2 - 1/4" studs as used on all pre-1978. If your starter motor housing is later, then it is threaded on the front hole to receive a bolt instead of a stud from the chaincase. While it is kind of awkward to get the nut on that front stud, if you use a flex extension for your socket and grease the nut and washer together in the socket it's easier than wrestling with the gasket, steel oil deflector plate, the pins, and the starter motor. If you choose to use the studs you will need to drill out the threads on the starter housing. If you are a good juggler, then drill out our beautiful virgin chaincase....

    That "rough" finish on the inside and outside is shot peening which distresses the surface to prevent cracks. This surface is created in a special machine which "throws" hardened steel BB's at a high rate of speed into the surface of the casing. No air is used in our shot peening operations

    You have by now noticed our chain housing is much heavier throughout than any other. This extra metal will help your primary run quieter by dampening the sound and maintaining alignments.
    Last edited by Dragstews; 09-14-2018 at 12:44 PM.

  7. #7

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    it looks like you have about 50% engagement into the starter ring,correct?



    that's exactly what it should be or that's how I allways set mine up. is it not working correctly?

    as far as the chain sawing on the housing,thats a very common problem. it is caused by sloppy chain adjustment. often made worse by guys trying to run too large a trans sprocket for higher gearing. im guessing you have a 24 tooth sprocket on there. a 23 tooth will help with that problem. you wont really notice the difference.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridgerunner1965 View Post
    it looks like you have about 50% engagement into the starter ring,correct?

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    Is it not working correctly?
    About 3/16" and that is on the lead in ramps of the bendix...

  9. #9
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    Can you just chuck the starter nose up and thin the mounting area ? It's too new for me to know it but that works on a chevy starter.
    Dusty

  10. #10
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    DustyDave is wise.

    You could mill the inner primary cover where the starter mounts (leaving enough for mounting boss support and maybe adding metal by TIG as desired) and the starter housing, thus avoiding deep cuts on either. The inner primary is easier to clamp on a milling table.

    Inserts for the drive housing mount bolts would be a good idea while you're there if the threads aren't perfect.

  11. #11
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    Dat's ^^^ a grand idea....

    The starters don't have much thickness on the housing to allow to be thinned down...
    I have thought about doing the inner primary mounting surface that the starter bolts up too....

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    It can afford to be cut down without adverse effect .....
    Although I'm liking the idea of replacing the import primary with a super strong Cal-Products ....

  12. #12
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    If the Cal Products is available that's a good upgrade and the more quality inner primaries we buy the longer they'll be available for us. (I should have bought more than one spare Delkron FXR inner. Company died, all gone. )

    The original is worn and the right thread looks questionable. Welding, machining and adding an insert is a fair amount of labor $ and then the owner would still have a cheapshit inner primary.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post

    (I should have bought more than one spare Delkron FXR inner. Company died, all gone. )
    They are back into production.....
    The New Delkron, Call Vince (317-398-8010)


    Unfortunately Cal-Products may not be on line and being Rivera was making the inner's from their pattern, they are no-mo !!!

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    Great news! Many FXR owners will be pleased.

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    Well.... How bout dat ...

    Was on FB asking for the Cal-Product inner pri. and a Guy says he's got one...
    Got with him in a PM chat, and it's on it's way to me....

    And here I thought finding one was going to be like .....


  16. #16

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    I have a cal inner on mine. just lucked into it with my indy. very happy with it.

  17. #17
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    Hoping this cures the problem .... If so, I'll also be happy as a pig in shit....

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  18. #18
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    They weren't playing when they chose that wall thickness.

  19. #19
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    King Tiger Tank .....

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    Good Golly ....

    Here we go ...
    Was in the mode of installing the inner .. Seen that two of the four bolts was left out on the motor, went to loosen up the five nuts on the tranny to frame mount and one was loose as a goose ...
    Got the inner on and was going back to tight on all, and the one that was loose on the tranny kelp spinning .....
    Ok ... Time to see if the owner wants me to fix these latest problems that stuck their ugly heads up... ???

    Just called the owner, Got the Ok for doing thread inserts on the motor case and will need to pull the tranny in order to install a oversize stud in order to repair that one ...
    Going to wait till the tranny is out, just may be the threads on the nut has given up the ghost...??
    ___________________________________________

    Got a light under it to get a good look at what was going on with that stud ....

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    ___________________________________________

    It was the threads in the nut that was striped out ...
    Ran a thread chaser on the stud and looks like the threads are still usable ...
    (Thanks goes to the Harley Gods for dat, really wasn't looking forward to replacing a trans mounting stud due to the work involved in doing so)

    Tranny was nailed to the plate with flat & lock washers... With the studs being somewhat short, not much thread contact was left for the nuts to do their job..
    Got a new plan of attack for them... Going to use nuts with a bitter flange ...
    That way no need for the flats & lock washers allowing for all the threads to be making full contact with the stud... Some red loctite will also be in play...

    The reason for me to be messing with the trans mounting nuts in the first place was to let the tranny find a new home with the diff. inner primary that's being installed...

    Got a new ballgame going on with the alignment..
    Last edited by Dragstews; 09-26-2018 at 9:07 AM.

  20. #20
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    Split lock washers suck anyway, hence their not being used by NASA and not commonly used in the aircraft industry. Star style are thinner and work better but safety wire or lock tabs or safety wire tab washers are far superior.

    If you have or know someone with cobalt or carbide drill bits and a safety wire drill jig you could make sure they don't come off until required.

    https://www.browntool.com/Default.as...ProductID=1337
    Last edited by farmall; 09-26-2018 at 3:52 PM.

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