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  1. #1

    Default oiling issues! 1967 Triumph Bonneville 650 project

    Hey guys!

    I'm having some major oiling issues.. have tried a few possibilities and do have a lot of diagrams, work shop manuals, etc.. but unfortunately I'm more of a hands on kind of guy rather than textbook and having that light bulb moment. so go easy on me!

    I was having issues getting oil up to the top end from the return line, tried cleaning the sump filter, the oil pressure release valve, the feed to the rockers, and even the oil pump itself. the original oil pump did have some interesting scoring pattern around the arms of the pumps. so i just ordered a whole new pump and slapped it on.

    I was having issues for a few starts, i threw some clamps on the line and bang, i started seeing that oil pumping right into the top end! however I still had oil pissing out of the bottom end from what looks like, to me, an overflow release. I'm definitely having issues with wet sumping. I called it quits that day and went back to tinker again the next day.
    BUT! now I'm not seeing the oil running to the top end at all again, no oil returning to the bag, and the brand new pump has the exact same scoring pattern, all while pissing out the bottom again!

    this motor has gone through a complete rebuild.. my mechanic did the whole bottom end, so I'm not crazy familiar with it, but i did the rest of the build with him.

  2. #2
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    The following page might be helpful.



    Click on image to enlarge.

    https://triumphbonneville120.co.uk/service-sheets.php

  3. #3

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    I have this diagram as well as a much more detailed one.. I've got the feed and returns set up, brand new oil pump, and still having the same issue.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Not sure if mobile uploading of photos works..
    but this is the new oil pump with the scoring that I was talking about in the first post.
    Thanks for the reply!

  4. #4

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Fuck yeah it does work haha

    And this is the old pump with the same scoring just a little worse

  5. #5
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    A PDF shop manual / Trouble Shooting Guide

    http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/R...nual-63-70.pdf

    It's 1935 technology, it should be easy find the problem.

  6. #6
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    I'm wondering if the intake camshaft pinion nut is not fully seated on the camshaft - I'm thinking if it were not fully seated, it would be further out than intended and cause the rubbing you have shown. Do you know if the cams were replaced? Perhaps the cam is sticking out too far. Was the intake cam properly installed engaging the two teeth on the breather disc? Is the pump mounting surface flat?
    Did you run this engine before your mechanic rebuilt it? If so, did you experience any of the oiling problems you have now?
    I see those pumps are different - what is your new one?
    Wondering if the failure for oil return could be a loose or leaking scavenge pipe inside the crankcase...I'm worried there may be grit or foreign material causing pumping issues - in the pump ball seats, pressure relief valve or in the lines - you cleaned some things - what about the oil tank? Have you fully flushed and cleaned all parts of the oil system, including the sump? When you said you threw some clamps on the line - which line was that? You should have clamps on all pipe fittings to prevent cavitation.

    Have you considered installing an oil filter - if you don't have one already - in the return line to catch debris and keep that oil system clean?

    Got any more photos of your bike to share?


    Here is a very thorough collection (a treasure trove) of excellent information for a '69 T120, which may require you to become a bit more of a textbook guy, and by selecting your reading choices, "having that light bulb moment...":

    The Bonnie Ref
    A Hyperlink Junkie's Illustrated Field Guide to the 1969 Triumph Bonneville
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    http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/om/manual.htm
    Last edited by TriNortchopz; 08-22-2018 at 6:54 AM. Reason: added breather disc question

  7. #7

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    The new pump is the Attachment 86665

    I haven't even thought of asking that question since it's been a full engine rebuild. I've been in contact with the mechanic and he hasn't brought that up before but I'll double check!
    The bike/motor had not been running for 25+ years. I picked it up off a tweaker for $300 and have had to deal with a beat to hell motor in several different stages.
    The oil bag I have is also a brand new aftermarket low brow hexagon steel oil bag for triumphs, as stupid as it sounds.. I haven't checked to make sure that no welds ended up blocking the spouts- will do that asap.

    I do have clamps on all the lines- I just didn't on the feed line to the top end because I put on a clear "dummy" line to be able to watch the oil path.

    i was looking at some diagrams and Im thinking I'm missing an oil pressure switch.. or something similar. Because the oil is just pissing straight out of a little tube, right next to where the stator wires come out from the cases

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I will most definitely be looking into an oil filter especially because I'm finding a tiny bit of metal shavings when draining from the sump, from what I assuming is the material from the pump being scored.

  8. #8

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    I think another issue is that because of the clearance problem, the oil pump is not sitting flush or flat against the mounting surface, so guessin' there is a gap between the pump body and mounting surface at the upper part of the gasket area - there goes your oil flow - from both the suction and supply.
    Did you try holding the pump in its proper mounting location and looking for a gap at the gasket surface?
    Any luck in determining if that intake cam nut is sticking out too far?

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    A couple more things to look at while you have the timing cover off;

    Check for clearance between the new pump body and the inside of the cover - sometimes when a different pump is used, a section of the inside cover needs to be ground out for clearance - shouldn't be a problem with your new pump as they are referencing factory part numbers, but worth checking.

    This lack of clearance is an issue when fitting #71-7317 stock Four Valve Triumph Unit Oil Pump, fitted as stock on unit construction Triumph late 750 twins, and fitting it on to unit 650s; some very minor modifications needed when fitting .
    See instructions here: "Mark inside of timing cover with some grease (or Prussian blue) and note where new, fatter pump is contacting cover. Grind groove in cover with small rotary rasp, close to the inner edge of the timing cover, between the two timing cover screw bosses. The cover is thick enough to handle sufficient grinding to allow the timing cover to sit flush without a gasket."
    http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/717317Installation.htm

    Also,check the crankshaft oil feed seal which fits into the cover.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    "...the crankshaft oil feed seal fits into the timing cover and seals around the crank end to direct oil through the crank.
    There are different manufactured seals on the market today, most work pretty well but some do not.

    Its important that the oil seal functions correctly because the seal is the only component that will prevent oil from sneaking past the crank end which will cause low oil pressure...
    There are two (2) types of oil feed seals that Triumph use to offer back in the day. Each seal is used for the same application but used under different circumstances...if your crankshaft oil feed spigot does not show any signs of pitting, rust or grooves. If your spigot appears appears to be in good order, use the 70-4568 / E4568 seal.
    ...The -.020 oil seal (70-6387 / E6387) is to help achieve a better fit on the crank feed end.
    To use this seal you're crank end either has a groove (caused by an old or worn seal) or had been reground by a crank grinder to eliminate the groove.
    Installing the oil feed seal the wrong way will also give you low oil pressure. This problem is actually very common...the correct way to install the seal: The back should be facing the crank while the spring should be facing the opposite.
    and,
    make sure you have the right seal; The standard oil seal was originally produced by Pioneer which featured a metal outer casing. This seal happened to be the same seal that was used as a contact breaker or advance unit seal....
    Some seals on the market where made to hold only 7 pounds of pressure which causes oil to blast past the seal. Now a 7 pound rated seal is not good for the crank but it is acceptable for the contact breaker or advance unit housing - as they use the same seal."

    See the full technical article here:
    Tech Tip: Triumph Twins Crankshaft Oil Feed Seal (Low Oil Pressure)
    https://www.classicbritishspares.com...ed-seal?page=1
    and,
    here is a link to the Triumph Factory Service Bulletin #269 for that oil seal:
    https://www.classicbritishspares.com...-oil-feed-seal
    Last edited by TriNortchopz; 08-22-2018 at 11:46 PM. Reason: spacing

  11. #11

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    Hey man I think you're right on the money with the cam shaft nut or cam shaft not being seated properly.
    I messaged low brow also because I got the pump from them and they gave me a similar answer.
    I think that you're also right on the money with the pump not being flush with the mounting surface due to cam nut/shaft issue.
    Will be digging into the bike in the afternoon.
    You've provided tons of awesome suggestions to which I'll be running through each. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it all!
    I'll get back to you once I've run through it all!
    Thanks again! It's much appreciated.

    Btw, if the cam shaft isn't quite installed properly.. is that going to be a nightmare to fix?
    Like I said I didn't do any of the bottom end work so I'm really trying to avoid having to pull the motor and split the cases

  12. #12
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    You said, referring to the bottom end,that you were "not crazy familiar with it", so now i guess you got the chance.
    There are usually (at least) two ways to do things - the right way,or not. Since there is a cam problem, I would go right in and check it all.
    Before you begin the disassembly you can check a few things; put a straightedge across the face of the intake cam gear and measure from a reference point the amount of offset (then check exhaust the same.) Check engine compression and perhaps include a leakdown test. Confirm that your engine is indeed a 1967 year model. get yourself a full gasket/sealset.
    Read your manual (including the ones in the links provided above by 12w3e4r).
    And read,study to fully understand what you need to do.
    Here is a link to an engine overhaul manual:
    http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/om/resource...aul_manual.pdf
    Do you have specialty tools needed for dis-assembly/assembly and precision measuring tools- or have access to them?
    If you prepare yourself,it shouldn't "be a nightmare to fix", just go step by step as described in the overhaul manual, and make it right.
    Again, lots to reference here:
    http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/om/manual.htm

  13. #13

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    Been busy guys, but I'm back. I took the cover off again, and, you guys were definitely right!

    Looking back in hindsight I should have noticed but I wasn't thinking about something as obvious as that, rookie mistake.

    The whole pinion nut that the oil pump attaches to wasn't torqued at all. There was a pretty hefty gap from which I could see threads.
    I tightened it down and sure as shit the pump slid into place much easier than before. I haven't gotten around to firing up yet due to my timing kind of jacked from taking the plate on and off so many times. But I did twist the exhaust (nut/shaft) to watch the intake run the oil pump and did not see any more scraping/contact.
    Just got my whitworth sockets, TDC tool, and timing wheel in so we'll see what happens once fired.

    Hoping that's the end of my oil troubles, but no guarantees!

    Thanks for all the replies! It helped immeasurably

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    Great that you found that loose pinion nut - sounds like just the pump was holding it on.
    What did you torque the Left-hand threaded nut to?
    Did you need to replace the pump gasket?

  15. #15

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    Haven't actually torqued the nit to spec yet, was waiting on whitworth sockets to come in the mail.
    Just tightened it down and rotated the gears to make sure that the pinion nut was no longer running or scrapping the oil pump arms.
    Do have an extra gasket that I will throw on as soon as I torque to spec this weekend. Eager to get this damn chop on the road! I'll upload pics this weekend!

  16. #16

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    Also- having a hard time finding any solid info on the exact sizing of oil lines.
    I found a thread that said 5/16 for the feed, 3/8 for the return, and 1/8 for the rockers.
    I tried looking in a workshop manual for the info that had all the details for lubrication, except oil line diameters haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonytheroller View Post
    Also- having a hard time finding any solid info on the exact sizing of oil lines.
    I found a thread that said 5/16 for the feed, 3/8 for the return, and 1/8 for the rockers.
    I tried looking in a workshop manual for the info that had all the details for lubrication, except oil line diameters haha

    Looking at the site linked in post #6 above:
    A Hyperlink Junkie's Illustrated Field Guide to the 1969 Triumph Bonneville
    http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/om/manual.htm#olines

    I see in the index a heading: Oil Lines...hmmm, lets see what that says;

    "The oil pipes at the oil junction block (70-6930) are 5/16""

    and this:

    "Warning! Correct installation of oil lines is crucial.
    Reversed connections result in inadequate lubrication and engine failure."

    A quick look and I didn't see a dimension for the rocker box feed hose, but its 3/16".

    These guys are also using 1/8 for rocker feed :
    http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbth...&Number=221630

  18. #18

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    Thanks man!
    I forgot about that link you sent me but have it book marked now, really well organized material.

    So I put the lines back on and got the timing close enough to fire up.

    I'm not having any oil piss from the crank case breather but still not getting any oil running to the return.

    I'm totally puzzled that whatever I did with the pinion nut and oil pump fixed my leaking problem but didn't do anything to provide the pressure to return the oil.

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    I'm not having any oil piss from the crank case breather but still not getting any oil running to the return.

    I'm totally puzzled that whatever I did with the pinion nut and oil pump fixed my leaking problem but didn't do anything to provide the pressure to return the oil.

    Did you ensure the oil pump gasket is on the right way, is the right gasket, and not blocking any passages?

    Did you ensure the oil lines are connected properly - to both the engine and the tank? What kind of tank ya got with what kind of fittings? Can you see the oil return pipe in the oil tank with the cap removed?

    Did you install an oil filter you mentioned? If so, did you fill it with oil? It will take a while to fill that with the return line.

    Oil return can be slow, even after just an oil and filter change...the problem with that is no oil getting to the rockers as they are lubricated by the return line.

    Try adding 200cc of oil into the crankcase - either through one of the valve adjustment caps and let it drain down into the sump - or if you have a timing plug at the back of the cylinders, add the oil there, then restart it and watch for oil return.

    If that doesn't do it, check the oil pressure relief valve to see if it has oil on it, which should indicate oil pumping to the engine through the feed plunger of the pump.

    The other thing you can do if fill all of the lines with oil then restart it.

    May need to pull the plugs and kick it through about 100 times to get the oil moving - I would add oil to the sump to ensure flow to the rockers. Then try starting it again, making sure the tank is filled.

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