oiling issues! 1967 Triumph Bonneville 650 project

[Tonytheroller]

Also- having a hard time finding any solid info on the exact sizing of oil lines.
I found a thread that said 5/16 for the feed, 3/8 for the return, and 1/8 for the rockers.
I tried looking in a workshop manual for the info that had all the details for lubrication, except oil line diameters haha

[TriNortchopz]

Also- having a hard time finding any solid info on the exact sizing of oil lines.
I found a thread that said 5/16 for the feed, 3/8 for the return, and 1/8 for the rockers.
I tried looking in a workshop manual for the info that had all the details for lubrication, except oil line diameters haha

Looking at the site linked in post #6 above:
A Hyperlink Junkie's Illustrated Field Guide to the 1969 Triumph Bonneville

http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/om/manual.htm#olines

I see in the index a heading: Oil Lines...hmmm, lets see what that says;

"The oil pipes at the oil junction block (70-6930) are 5/16""

and this:

"Warning! Correct installation of oil lines is crucial.
Reversed connections result in inadequate lubrication and engine failure."

A quick look and I didn't see a dimension for the rocker box feed hose, but its 3/16".

These guys are also using 1/8 for rocker feed :

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=221630

[Tonytheroller]

Thanks man!
I forgot about that link you sent me but have it book marked now, really well organized material.

So I put the lines back on and got the timing close enough to fire up.

I'm not having any oil piss from the crank case breather but still not getting any oil running to the return.

I'm totally puzzled that whatever I did with the pinion nut and oil pump fixed my leaking problem but didn't do anything to provide the pressure to return the oil.

[Tonytheroller]

[TriNortchopz]

I'm not having any oil piss from the crank case breather but still not getting any oil running to the return.

I'm totally puzzled that whatever I did with the pinion nut and oil pump fixed my leaking problem but didn't do anything to provide the pressure to return the oil.

Did you ensure the oil pump gasket is on the right way, is the right gasket, and not blocking any passages?

Did you ensure the oil lines are connected properly - to both the engine and the tank? What kind of tank ya got with what kind of fittings? Can you see the oil return pipe in the oil tank with the cap removed?

Did you install an oil filter you mentioned? If so, did you fill it with oil? It will take a while to fill that with the return line.

Oil return can be slow, even after just an oil and filter change...the problem with that is no oil getting to the rockers as they are lubricated by the return line.

Try adding 200cc of oil into the crankcase - either through one of the valve adjustment caps and let it drain down into the sump - or if you have a timing plug at the back of the cylinders, add the oil there, then restart it and watch for oil return.

If that doesn't do it, check the oil pressure relief valve to see if it has oil on it, which should indicate oil pumping to the engine through the feed plunger of the pump.

The other thing you can do if fill all of the lines with oil then restart it.

May need to pull the plugs and kick it through about 100 times to get the oil moving - I would add oil to the sump to ensure flow to the rockers. Then try starting it again, making sure the tank is filled.

[Tonytheroller]

I did make sure the oil pump gasket was installed correctly, it is easy to mess up, but I took care to make sure it was on with no openings covered what so ever.

I have not installed the oil filter yet.
I plan on it- but I'm anxious to see some actual oil flow before purchasing one and installing.
Money and wrench time are tighter than usual lately. Had to order some whitworth tools, timing wheel, and TDC tool- that ate up the filter budget for now haha.

While I do not have any oil running to the return line whatsoever, I am getting wetsumped from the feed. Everytime I drain the sump filter bolt from the bottom of the motor- a pretty hefty amount of oil is draining out. Even after draining, re installing bolt, firing a few times, then pulling bolt back out- I still have a lot of oil dumping out.
I haven't measured the mount yet by I read anything more than 100cc is wet sumping.
I remember pouring in 500cc of gear oil into the gearbox and it definitely looks to be as much if not more than that.

I have squirted a little oil into each valve adjustment caps before and into the rocker feed, but never as much as 200cc- although doing so would make me much more comfortable firing up, revving and idling for a couple mins to see get some oil movement, hopefully.

I'll pull the oil pressure relief valve to check for oil.
Also- would the oil pressure switch be a possible culprit.

I looked through that link you sent me, and did not find much info on the oil pressure switch. I also checked my work shop manual and had the same result. I've tried YouTube with no luck.
But I have never messed with it so don't know if it could lead to a problem such as I'm having.

Right now I have a 1/8 clear line from the oil tank return that tees off for the rocker feed, I have it clamped down pretty tight- not sure if it not being rated for pressure would also cause an issue.
I'm using it as a "dummy" line to watch for oil flow. Then would replace.

I have the oil lines connected from the feed of the oil tank to the forward (closest to front end) pipe of the junction box
And the return line connected to the rear (closest to back wheel) pipe of the junction box.
The junction box has been removed and thoroughly cleaned as well as running brand new lines.

I have the hexagon steel oil bag from low brow customs installed. All tubes are clear and free from excess weld/debris

The strange thing is that I have had oil flow temporarily before. That's why this is so god damn confusing to me.
The day before I pulled the bike from my mechanics shop there was oil flowing into the rocker feed. It was still pissing out the crank case breather, but I was done waiting and figured I could fix something that small atleast. And then this whole problem started

[TriNortchopz]

In your first post you mentioned oil pissing out of a line near your engine final drive sprocket - and that you had a bit of oil returning, but not to the rockers - that was all while the oil pump was not fully seated due to the loose intake camshaft pinion nut.

That line you mentioned where oil was pissing out of is a crankcase vent line, so my guess is that wet sumping was a problem then - the pump was feeding, but return was not working, sump was filling and pissing out of that vent line.

I think I asked about the crankcase return pickup pipe - did you ever try blowing some compressed air through there when the pump was off to ensure there was not a blockage in that pipe? What if that pipe is cracked? Might be worth checking for both.

Try priming the pump too - both the feed and return plungers - test them while you got that pump off, as described in the overhaul manual in that link I shared earlier (Triumph makes a mechanic out of a man).

Do you have an oil pressure gauge you can connect to ensure adequate oil pressure when you re-start it??

Before starting again, use an oil can pump oiler (metal ones that create pressure) to feed your rockers through the rocker oil line to ensure oil is in there.


What did you find with the pressure relief valve?

[TriNortchopz]

Found this which may be helpful:

Causes of Bad Breathing/Wet Sumping in Classic Bikes…Then and Now.

When e.g. a bike wet sumps…the first sign of this is often oil flooding out the breather...This article examines a 1967 approach to wet sumping and associated bad breathing...

Twelve Main Causes of Wet Sumping
1/ Johnson state “…in almost every case this was caused by foreign material being lodged under the return oil pump check ball…”
They advise wetsumping was also caused by the following:-...11 more reasons...

See the full article here:

https://bunnbreather.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/causes-of-bad-breathingwet-sumping-in-classic-bikes-then-and-now/

And another great link too;

British Only Tech Library
Parts Books for Triumph, BSA and Norton
Tech Tips and Service Manuals

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/#TriumphService

which includes: Triumph Service Bulletin 67/9; Wet Sumping
on page 17 of 42 pages in this pdf

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/PDF_Files/triumph/Servicebulletin/1967/1967combined.pdf

which includes the scavenge suction test, plus other tests

How does that crankcase filter look - not clogged?
see part #31 on page 20 & 21 of 1967 Parts Manual here:

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/20-10305C.pdf

[Tonytheroller]

I swear this bike just wants to fight with me forever haha.

I was working on it on Sunday:

I pulled the oilnpressure relief nut and there was definitely oil getting to it, which was a good sign.
Then I tightened my tach plug screw, fed oil through an oiler into the valve caps, the rocker feed arms and tightened the rocker feed nuts, and pumped some oil into the feed line as well. To my surprise once I started it I saw slight bubbling in the feed line but no actual oil flow. I then pulled the return line from the junction box on the crank case and did have oil in it, but when I pulled the cap of the oil tank and tried looking in I'm not actually seeing oil returning.
But then I started getting the damn oil pissing out from the rear of the crank case again- the crank case breather?

I also pulled a plug off from the timing cover that sits almost parallel with the oil pressure relief valve on the crank case:


First the cap nut came off first and this is what I found


Then removed whole plug





I tried pulling up some diagrams and what not, my thinking tells me that isn't the specific part for that hole in the timing cover. It seems like a make shift plug.
It's packed with some kind of materia like bondo, silicone or something. I didn't clean it out yet as I don't have a replacement piece.

I also can't seem to figure out what the damn oil pressure switch is..

And finally, when about done fucking with the bike for the day I noticed I had a little bit of oil pooled around the spark plug on the chain side of the motor.

So now I'm wondering if maybe my head gasket isn't installed correctly and the exhaust feed tappet is blocked.

Am I reaching..? Or is it probably simpler than that. I'm at about whits end and ready to pull the whole motor and start from scratch or wait until winter and take it to the guy over in Sacramento at vintage monkey

[TriNortchopz]

That piece you pulled out of the oil pressure switch hole is the remains of an oil line and oil line fitting that was going to a remote mounted oil pressure gauge - someone cut or broke off the oil line and filled the end of it with " some kind of materia like bondo, silicone or something"

Are you sure that your engine is a '67 model? DU44394 - DU666245 (don't need to know your number, just need you to confirm year to help with parts and part numbers); see engine number listing here:

https://www.britishonly.com/tech/joust/techtiptriumphmf.htm

There was just a plug in the oil pressure switch hole on certain years and the threads are different as well, depending on the year...even so, it could be a different year of timing cover. Early unit ones had a 1/8" BSP British Standard Pipe with 28 TPI. The 1/8" was the nominal inside diameter, and the outside diameter is close to 3/8".
Here is the oil pressure switch:
damn invalid photos...

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/oil-pressure-sending-units

The sparkplug is above the head gasket, so maybe the oil you found pooled by the sparkplug was from when you were feeding the rockers which seeped past the o-ring on the end of the rocker shaft. But now that you are on the subject, did you ever do a compression test and record and share the results? A leakdown test would also help identify a leak at the head gasket.

Not sure what you are referring to when you "tightened the tach plug screw"; can you post a pic?
You were questioning the head gasket then jumped to "the exhaust feed tappet is blocked"...what lead to that conclusion?

Gotta ask, did you pull the timing cover, clean and check the pump, and do all of the tests for oil pump and wet-sumping in the links I provided above? May have been something in a line or sump that is stuck on the ball/seat of your new return pump plunger. Did you check to make sure the seal in the timing cover for the crankshaft feed is in there and installed the right way (spring side into the cover) - with the circlip(not that this would be a wet-sumping issue - just one more thing to confirm with the cover off).

And have you been studying the factory repair manual, engine overhaul manual and parts books to help identify and understand possible problems and solutions?

[lmaas]

Full Pressure Rocker Oiling

This is something I did to solve rocker oiling issues on my 67 800cc Rickman Triumph twin. I silver soldered a brass fitting closed, as it comes out of the engine, drilled a small .037 hole in the silver soldered plug, and connected clear high pressure line with compression fittings to the rocker oil line. This mod allows full oil pressure to the rockers, almost instantly upon starting. /Larry

[TriNortchopz]

I like it; how did you determine the .037" orifice to prevent over oiling of the rockers?
This is similar to what the '38 & '39 Triumph T5 Speedtwin and Tiger 100 had - a banjo to feed the rockers and an oil pressure gauge; the rocker feed was adjustable using a screw thread inside of the brass fitting:


See the two oil lines in this thread:

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/showthread.php?26178-My-1938-39-Triumph-A-Retrospective-Review