Shovelhead Clutch Pushrod Welded to Adjuster Screw

[carlbrah]

Hey Guys,

Done a decent amount of research on this, I just want some confirmation/ideas before I try this again.

1977-ish 4 speed ratchet top trans, BDL open belt primary, brand new 5 finger hub, brand new clutch plates

So - was riding my newly built chopper and clutch lever goes slack (foot clutch) and I cant disengage clutch. This was sketchy as hell and hard as shit to stop.

Got it to the shop, via a tow, and was able to open it up. Throwout bearing (wafer style) was toast, probably due to me being an ape in tightening adjustment screw too much. Okay, so got new Throwout Bearing parts in. Took a bit to get off the old clutch pushrod because it had welded to the adjuster screw. I got those apart and proceded to install new stuff.

Now - my new throwout bearing kit from jpcycles, came with a brass ring, and 2 small steel bushing things. Does anyone know what those are for? The small steel bushing things are maybe a 1/2" in length and fit perfectly around the clutch pushrod. Needless to say, I didn't use that shit cause I didn't know what it was for. https://www.jpcycles.com/product/630...ut-bearing-kit
they're in that pic

So anyways, I didnt get a new adjuster screw - so I used the old one that had been welded to the old pushrod. Installed new throwout bearing stuff, put in oil, started up, did some clutch tests and boom - welded again. throwout bearing looks fine - I made sure I didn't adjust tight at all - was honestly pretty loose just cause I was scared I'd tighten too much again. So after some effort, I was able to get the fused adjuster screw and new pushrod unstuck. Obviously at this point I'm pissed and trash everything.

So - could my old adjuster screw really fuse within 30secs of contact with the new pushrod? I see some forums saying they hardened that end? So I guess after it had already fused once, it is toast forever?

My pushrod sticks out of the oil seal when it contacts the adjuster screw, so since this is a dry set-up, I dpn't see how it'd ever get lubrication - at the end of the day it will always be metal to metal correct? I am now buying the adjuster screw with the ball at the end of it to help with non-welding.

Ultimately all this is to ask - what can i do to make sure this shit doesn't fuse again? The pushrod pokes out of the oil seal on the clutch side, and it's dry clutch so it will always be unlubed. I got a new adjuster screw and pushrod so that's good right? I won't tighten too much, so that they aren't under stress the entire time - only when I am pressing down clutch lever.

I understand I am to adjust the clutch adjuster til the shift arm has no play, then back off so that it has some play. Then I put on my foot clutch chain, and adjust that. when my foot clutch chain is attached, should it have slack with the shift arm? The foot clutch lever has weight to it, so I'm worried that it is pulling the shift arm, therefore turning the finger and pushing the rod into the adjuster - however that's really low pressure, so that should be fine right?

Also there was some wear on the oil slinger, with the throwout bearing pushed all the way to the finger, it seems the oil slinger would actually rub into the finger - that doesn't seem cool.

Any ideas would be great. just tired of frying new parts and want to not do it yet again. Could that fried adjuster screw being reused really have been the crux of my issue? Rewelding within 30secs sounds unbelievable though.

[Dragstews]

VT No: 17-0610
Kit includes a heavy duty throw out bearing with matching release finger and shaft.
Fits:
FL 1970-1984
FX 1971-1984

Could be a thought ... ??

[carlbrah]

I've definitely been looking into that, however, it's more expensive than the wafer and until I figure out why it's welding to the adjuster screw, I didn't want to destroy that part also.

[carlbrah]

also - since the oil slinger fits into the slots on the clutch pushrod - I'm inclined to believe the clutch pushrod is always spinning correct? Is it the mainshaft bearing it goes through that causes it to spin? is it the swishing of oil from the trans gears?

[WillSCB]

VT No: 17-0610
Kit includes a heavy duty throw out bearing with matching release finger and shaft.
Fits:
FL 1970-1984
FX 1971-1984

Could be a thought ... ??

Yes, it costs more initially, but in the long run, you will spend less. I never had anything but problems with the wafer style stamped steel pieces of shit. Don't know what to say about your pushrod fusing issue. Maybe leave a little bit more slack, and also thinking the adjuster with the ball at the end could help as well. Good luck.

[shovithead]

First, there are more than one pushrods, year specific. If it sticks out of the seal to far, it may be the wrong one. The pushrod may be tight from rust or debris in the mainshaft. The two "washers" are thrust washers, and one goes on after the slinger(big geared looking hat) and the slinger has to fit on the shaft, on a double flat spot. The little brass piece, goes in the throw out bearing as a bushing. So, in order, you need to push the push rod in the mainashaft and make sure it spins freely in your fingers. Pull out if it does. If it is tight any at all, clean the mainshaft galley with a long wire brush , or brake cleaner and pressurized air. Once it spins freely, take out. Put on the slinger, then the first thick washer(thrust washer) then the throwout bearing, with the brass bushing, then the second thick washer. On the outside of that, there is a round snap ring, that holds the whole thing on the shaft. Then, you put in the mainshaft. when you adjust, you tighten the adjuster screw until it contacts and back off a quarter turn. If you are running a foot clutch, there can be NO pressure on the clutch arm where the rod/chain/coat hanger, hooks at the trans. There needs to be forward and backwards movement. No pressure and not so tight it will not move either direction. And NO, the pushrod does NOT spin all the time, it should remain stationary when the clutch is not applied. If it does, then that is the problem and the reason you need to make sure the rod is loose in the mainshaft. then, the release finger, in the kick cover has to have the split on the end, and not be rough. the shaft the release finger attaches to has to move freely too. I am hoping that you are using the long clutch release arm, that goes to the back of , or beyond the clutch hub. there are basically three, for the ratchet top. Short and goes a little more then halfway to the clutch back. the second goes almost to the back of the clutch and the last goes to beyond the clutch. short is stock hand clutch style. Second is the 66 to 69, with a hard inner primary and the third, is for the tin primary, non electric start early bikes, panhead and back. any of these will fit the release arm shaft(square top opening to fit square end of shaft with a nut on top. All of this is important. I would need more info, to tell you more. Year bike, trans style(ratchet, or cowpie shifter top) and type of foot clutch and rod.

Don't pay attention to my amount of post. I have been doing foot clutches for 45 years. Know them inside and out without a book.

[Dragstews]

Welcome shovithead

Great to have ya aboard ....
Things must be a little slow on the JJ for you to venture over here ...

[carlbrah]

thanks for both of your responses. I've seen your posts on Jockey Journal, shovithead, so I believe ya. It's a ratchet top 4 speed trans, looks about 1977-ish. my clutch release arm is super long, so I think it's the one you recommend.I installed the throwout bearing the way you described and made sure the slinger was on the flat spots, however, I did not put the brass bushing on the throwout bearing in between the two thrust washers - I'll make sure to do that on the new one. Also, my finger was looking rough and did not have the damn thrust washer under it that it's supposed to have - I noticed that afterwards. The finger shaft rotates pretty well so I think that part is fine. I know without the thrust washer under the finger, the finger has vertical movement, which isnt good.

the engine is a 1983 FXR engine - trans is 1977ish, primary is open belt BDL style, homemade suicide clutch setup with a chain linking foot lever to clutch release arm.

I'll make sure to clean out the mainshaft, just in case. also the pushrod is 14"

As for the foot clutch, I guess I'll try to attach a spring so that the lever doesnt just hang via the chain - thereby putting pressure on the clutch release arm. the lever is light so i didnt think it'd matter much, but I suppose the only reason the lever is able to hold it's position currently is because the chain is pulling the release lever and thereby making the pushrod and adjuster screw contact. When I look at pics of foot clutch pedals, they just seem to hang via the chain/rod/whatever:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfMpABDypPACSc7tbIG3P1HnW5E0z8FhVh9cnDCj00VyK9g7e_Qg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vEvVokoW1-Q/hqdefault.jpg

some examples above.

last thing bout adjustment - do i turn in adjuster until it just starts to MOVE the clutch release arm back, or do I keep screwing until it moves the release arm all the way back and becomes tight - then back off?

I'm putting on new stuff Wednesday and will take a video for the install - to show what I'm doing and for anyone else who runs into this problem. It's especially frustrating when it's the only thing stopping me from riding my new build I've been working on for 6 months haha

[farmall]

Welcome shovithead!

More quality input makes this place better.

[Tattooo]

Welcome shovithead

Great to have ya aboard ....
Things must be a little slow on the JJ for you to venture over here ...

Yes Jesse I'm with you glad he's over here to help...

[SILVERBULLET]

thanks for both of your responses. I've seen your posts on Jockey Journal, shovithead, so I believe ya. It's a ratchet top 4 speed trans, looks about 1977-ish. my clutch release arm is super long, so I think it's the one you recommend.I installed the throwout bearing the way you described and made sure the slinger was on the flat spots, however, I did not put the brass bushing on the throwout bearing in between the two thrust washers - I'll make sure to do that on the new one. Also, my finger was looking rough and did not have the damn thrust washer under it that it's supposed to have - I noticed that afterwards. The finger shaft rotates pretty well so I think that part is fine. I know without the thrust washer under the finger, the finger has vertical movement, which isnt good.

the engine is a 1983 FXR engine - trans is 1977ish, primary is open belt BDL style, homemade suicide clutch setup with a chain linking foot lever to clutch release arm.

I'll make sure to clean out the mainshaft, just in case. also the pushrod is 14"

As for the foot clutch, I guess I'll try to attach a spring so that the lever doesnt just hang via the chain - thereby putting pressure on the clutch release arm. the lever is light so i didnt think it'd matter much, but I suppose the only reason the lever is able to hold it's position currently is because the chain is pulling the release lever and thereby making the pushrod and adjuster screw contact. When I look at pics of foot clutch pedals, they just seem to hang via the chain/rod/whatever:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfMpABDypPACSc7tbIG3P1HnW5E0z8FhVh9cnDCj00VyK9g7e_Qg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vEvVokoW1-Q/hqdefault.jpg

some examples above.

last thing bout adjustment - do i turn in adjuster until it just starts to MOVE the clutch release arm back, or do I keep screwing until it moves the release arm all the way back and becomes tight - then back off?

I'm putting on new stuff Wednesday and will take a video for the install - to show what I'm doing and for anyone else who runs into this problem. It's especially frustrating when it's the only thing stopping me from riding my new build I've been working on for 6 months haha

I'm new here too but been around a while.
You turn the adjuster until it TOUCHES, it should not move, then back off 1/4.
Hello from southern Indiana.

[shovithead]

Welcome shovithead

Great to have ya aboard ....
Things must be a little slow on the JJ for you to venture over here ...

Not really. I am in here all the time. but rarely see anyone needing MY help. Usually they get the answers before I get to them. Hows thing in West Florida, long time no see(online, haha). I stay pretty busy on JJ, since all the other greybeards left for places unknown(or at least I will not say). I venture all over the place, since I retired in 13. Shop doing great, and still turning work away, so I have plenty to do, without surfing. But my passion runs deep. Like yours.

[shovithead]

Clutch rod welding classes. With Mr throw out bearing and his bronze center bushing

thanks for both of your responses. I've seen your posts on Jockey Journal, shovithead, so I believe ya. It's a ratchet top 4 speed trans, looks about 1977-ish. my clutch release arm is super long, so I think it's the one you recommend.I installed the throwout bearing the way you described and made sure the slinger was on the flat spots, however, I did not put the brass bushing on the throwout bearing in between the two thrust washers - I'll make sure to do that on the new one. Also, my finger was looking rough and did not have the damn thrust washer under it that it's supposed to have - I noticed that afterwards. The finger shaft rotates pretty well so I think that part is fine. I know without the thrust washer under the finger, the finger has vertical movement, which isnt good.

the engine is a 1983 FXR engine - trans is 1977ish, primary is open belt BDL style, homemade suicide clutch setup with a chain linking foot lever to clutch release arm.

I'll make sure to clean out the mainshaft, just in case. also the pushrod is 14"

As for the foot clutch, I guess I'll try to attach a spring so that the lever doesnt just hang via the chain - thereby putting pressure on the clutch release arm. the lever is light so i didnt think it'd matter much, but I suppose the only reason the lever is able to hold it's position currently is because the chain is pulling the release lever and thereby making the pushrod and adjuster screw contact. When I look at pics of foot clutch pedals, they just seem to hang via the chain/rod/whatever:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfMpABDypPACSc7tbIG3P1HnW5E0z8FhVh9cnDCj00VyK9g7e_Qg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vEvVokoW1-Q/hqdefault.jpg

some examples above.

last thing bout adjustment - do i turn in adjuster until it just starts to MOVE the clutch release arm back, or do I keep screwing until it moves the release arm all the way back and becomes tight - then back off?

I'm putting on new stuff Wednesday and will take a video for the install - to show what I'm doing and for anyone else who runs into this problem. It's especially frustrating when it's the only thing stopping me from riding my new build I've been working on for 6 months haha

Year model of trans is like guessing , after this many years of rebuilds. Not to mention the length of the rod. I am guessing that the rod, sounds long. But, may be wrong. 13.5 sounds closer, but the length is only to long, if the adjuster screw is sticking out way past the lock nut. The screw should be about 1/4 inch beyond the nut. But, as long as you have adjustment in the screw, the 1/4 will probably work. A heavy chain, can put pressure on the TO bearing, and the missing bushing is a bad bad no no. I am guessing the bushing is the problem. The finger can be polished, and if you have a extreme amount of up and down play on the clutch arm shaft, it too, could be hitting the end of the pushrod shaft, so if it moves more than about one sixteenth, install a shim(thin washer) under the shaft, to hold it from moving up and down(just make sure it fits the round shaft pretty close). And the snap ring has to be there too. I would get a regular rod type clutch rod, even make one out of some metal coat hangers, just to get the hanging chain from keeping pressure on the TO bearing. In this case, less if better(weight). the length of the rod, is determined by where you want the clutch pedal to sit, so you can easily engage it with foot. (of course. Or it would NOT be a foot clutch). Clutch arm, being "super long" could be two different ones. But, either will do, as long as it is not the short one(stock hand clutch type). You want the rod(if you install one) to be pretty in line with the foot clutch pedal. After you make sure the rod will rotate freely, put it in, and temporarily install kick cover( make sure to grease the TO bearing, for start up purposes. Grease on the end of the rod/finger too. Then, grease the adjuster screw, and install it and run it in until you feel pressure. Now, you want ZERO pressure on the rod(TO bearing) because if it has pressure it will rotate full time, when the motor is running. That is why you want the rod, or a real light chain. the heavier the chain, the more pressure it will apply. You could even use a return spring on the pedal, or on the clutch arm, to keep the pressure off the TO bearing. After you feel pressure, back it off a quarter turn, or even a half turn. (with a foot clutch, you have more pull(push) than with a hand clutch setup. Of course, it depends on how you set up the clutch, and if it is a stock(made for a Harley) clutch pedal, or a home made one. Determine the pull, by seeing how far the pedal pulls the clutch arm. It should pull almost to the ratchet shift drum housing, but not hit it fully pressed in. So, try that and post again. Don't get in a hurry(like you did the first time), because the details are the ones that keep you riding, not hitchhiking, or sitting in the hot sun, waiting on your buddy, who is having just "one more six pack" before he has to come get you. This is the patience time. So do your due diligence and you will be eating bugs soon. Remember, we can ride all year long. But the motor and trans/clutch has to work. Or you will be walking. Walking sucks, when you have a bike. Like running out of gas, with money in your pocket. It sucks.

[Dragstews]

.../// https://youtu.be/O2BQpljuWHY \\\...

[carlbrah]

from this video:

https://youtu.be/ctDy07RaR6I

it seems i do turn in the adjuster screw until it moves the clutch release arm back towards the rear, and then feels snug. then i back off. is this process correct?

also thanks for the responses, ill be recording everything i do either tomorrow or thursday and posting it.