Late Juice drum death trap - trouble shooting

[tosh]

Hey all, I've never posted anything so here's my first . This forum has helped me out TONS from skimming through in the past, great resources from lots of solid people. Much appreciated if answers come my way.
I took apart my rear juice drum for the first time since acquiring this 77' FXE.
Once I opened it up, I found the wheel cylinder to have been chewed / shaved / ground down, almost straight through... check out the photo, its impressive.
I'm not at my garage until this weekend (it's Monday today), but wanted to let this marinate so perhaps there could be some solutions found...
The backing plate is the correct one, running a midstar hub, on a paugcho rigid frame... I will pop into the garage tonight if I can to get some closer photos of things.
Has anyone ever seen or heard of this issue ? Appears to be an internal spacer issue of sorts (at least that's what comes to mind) but , holy shit, happy I took a peek in there.
Cheers, I'll check back soon with photos and additional info.

[Tattooo]

I'd say it's the wrong wheel cylinder... I bet they just used what they could find and ground on it to make it work...

[farmall]

I can't argue because it worked. If it's also larger bore than the stock part it probably worked better.

[BuddhahoodVato]

Did you goggle that number, master looks a bit large, plus I have never seen that stamping on any masters I've messed with.

[Tattooo]

Did you goggle that number, master looks a bit large, plus I have never seen that stamping on any masters I've messed with.

I've seen them.. Early GM had those markings... 60s and back...

[tosh]

I ordered a proper wheel cylinder , once it comes im curious to measure the difference. The grinder marks on it makes it hard to imagine anything inside the drum able to shave it down like that to make it a perfect fit. Leaning towards it have been a "make it work" situation. I'll left you fellas know once I get the new cylinder. Haven't been able to find the matching number online. Thanks

[usmc50lx]

What number is on it? The original Harley 58-66 Juice drum is Early Jeep wheel cylinder with straight fittings, the 67-72 is a 1950 Nash Front Wheel cylinder and has angled fittings. I deal in Autoparts so throw the number up I'll let you know what its to I just didn't see a clear shot of it in the photos.

[tosh]

[tosh]

Thanks usmc501x. Here's the snap of it below . I entered a few version of what I thought was the right number but had nothing show up that made any sense .

[Tattooo]

It might be nice to know what it is but, I woundn't put another one on your bike just like it...

[CTNewman]

I can't argue because it worked. If it's also larger bore than the stock part it probably worked better.

A larger bore wheel cylinder would have higher force but require more pedal travel. A trade off for sure.

[usmc50lx]

Thanks usmc501x. Here's the snap of it below . I entered a few version of what I thought was the right number but had nothing show up that made any sense .

That is a 1966 Jeep DJ5 Wheel Cylinder good ol fashioned postal jeep.. right application just wrong year. It also is a 1 1/8" bore as opposed to the original HD part 1" bore.

Exactly like Christian said above it would clamp more at the cost of more pedal travel unless M/C bore was increased as well.

[Tattooo]

That is a 1966 Jeep DJ5 Wheel Cylinder good ol fashioned postal jeep.. right application just wrong year.

Are other years smaller??

[usmc50lx]

Yes, the correct 58-66 Wheel cylinder is a forties and early 50s Jeep item that Harley sourced and is a 7/8 or 1" Bore, then when they widened the shoes and changed the backing plate in 67 they went to the Nash 1" bore but either will bolt in.

[Tattooo]

Yes, the correct 58-66 Wheel cylinder is a forties and early 50s Jeep item that Harley sourced and is a 7/8 or 1" Bore, then when they widened the shoes and changed the backing plate in 67 they went to the Nash 1" bore but either will bolt in.

Got ya, Thanks for the info that's very helpful...

[ericthebeard]

Yes, the correct 58-66 Wheel cylinder is a forties and early 50s Jeep item that Harley sourced and is a 7/8 or 1" Bore, then when they widened the shoes and changed the backing plate in 67 they went to the Nash 1" bore but either will bolt in.

Could you post a part number or specific make/model/year for the Nash cylinder that works with the 68-72 drums?

[usmc50lx]

Could you post a part number or specific make/model/year for the Nash cylinder that works with the 68-72 drums?

WC9004 is the O'Reilly/Wagner/Raybestos part number the application is a 1950 Nash Rambler Left front wheel cylinder.


(Pro tip) - if building a chopper the right front wheel cylinder puts the line to the rear of the bike the left front puts the line to the front(stock used this with big banjo fitting correcting the angle) if that makes sense so depending on how you are running the plumbing you can angle the fitting the correct way

[BuddhahoodVato]

Another excellent post.

[Dougtheinternetannoyance123]

Harley back in the day just used what was commonly available,,Modern manufacturers do even more of this. Its not cost effective to make every single component themselves. (Which is why most Harleys have Japanese made forks).

There is a very close and important relationship between master cyl and wheel cyl (Or caliper) and as Farmall says
"Math is brutal",,, So you can make it better or worse depending on which direction you go.

For example when the japs started putting Disc brakes on bikes the British were slow to respond but finally added them too. But early disc brakes were thought to be TOO much brake and might cause accidents so even Honda and other detuned their disc systems to less than optimal, It was thought frames might break, people would do stoppies and crash etc..
By mixing and matching bore sizes you can dramatically increase performance. The stock Girling setup on Nortons and Triumphs were lame, and most people either add a aftermarket master cyl, or sleeve theirs to a smaller bore. This makes the brake very effective. Same deal with Harley,, That wheel cyl looks like most American cars,, and rebuilding my 65 GMC looks very similar.
A Mitchell interchange manual SHOULD bring up a crap-ton of wheel cylinders that can interchange and would do a better job if you get the sizing right.

While its useful to know the stock replacements for the stock HD and know it came off a jeep,, I would think you might want to also look at having the best brakes possible while you are buying parts and rebuilding it.

I know a local guy who played around with his Pan and knuckle collection (He has a lot of bikes) and couldnt find good brake shoes and wanted better. He found some modern Kevlar-carbon fibre materials but no shops would reline his shoes so he bought the material himself and relined them himself and did testing on his lathe. Amazing difference. He also did another guys Indian Scout and Bob told me he can skid both front and back and it has never done that before.

True the drums as well. arc in the shoes and bed them in (Careful seasoning) will make it 1000x better than what you had before. A drum brake properly setup has way more contact area than a disc brake, and the only downside is heat. But if its done right a drum brake can outbreak a disc brake.

[Blackbetty]

The WC9004/9005 are 1" bore diameter wheel cylinders (left or right port)

I see that raybestos part number shared time and time again for 67-72 setups. It'll work, but there is a marked difference in pedal feel between a 1" and 1-1/8" wheel cylinder.

http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44865