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  1. #1
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    Default How can I have a one kick bike?

    New owner of hardtailed 67 "chopper" T120 with big bore 750, boyer ignition and oil leaks. Otherwise looks very well put together and instruction to start were, "chokes (Mikunis) on and ignition off kick 3 times, ignition on kick again and it starts." Haven't owned it long but this seems to work. Now I'm envious of one kick bikes I hear about. Lots of new parts on this bike including the carbs so what does it tell me that I have to kick 4 times to start? Some part of the carb circuit too lean? This is my first bike in a while and my first Triumph.
    Also once I get it started, the idle seem ok, maybe a little low, and then it stalls or has stalled when I put it in gear. After that happens I haven't figured out the routine to restart when it's warmed up a little. Actually haven't got to ride this beauty yet for those reasons. thanks for reading.

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    Prime kicks don't count. You just described a one kick bike.
    Should not need choke but maybe one prime when warm.
    Are ya kicking it on a side stand? Left carb will tend to flood...
    Adjust the idle when warm.

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    lack of info here,,,, What KIND of Mikunis? Round slide VM carbs? If so, read up on them, get a manual. SUDCO sells an excellent one and are the US Distributors. Few people actually read the manuals so the results are predictable, But actual manual and tech will help.
    Mikuni jets are backwards of most numbering, and critical you have right jets in there. Especially the pilot air jet is critical. Secondly, the "ENRICHENER circuit" is sensitive to fuel issues. You dont have a choke on a Mikuni. (Hence, get the manual and you will understand)
    But, often they fail to work after sitting. You take a 10mm wrench and pull the brass nut and pull the enrichener out of the hole, spray a squirt or 2 of Carb cleaner. reinstall and Bobs yer uncle laddie.
    Boyer is excellent assuming its timed right. Also always start with headlight off. They tend to be voltage sensitive (new ones are improved) so they need a full 12v to start and run. Older units will cut out and die below 9v. You need NGK B7ES spark plugs, B8s will foul. Good wires and coil. Test your coils, (what do you have for coils?) You should have 3.8 to 4.2 Ohms. Less than, VERY BAD! More than, Bad too. Dont listen to morons who say a 5 ohm coil is just fine. They are retarded mouth breathers.
    You can get a Dyna, Andrews or other HD type single coils with dual posts and work well.
    You should A) Open Carb enrichener lever, B) Turn on fuel tap, C) check for Neutral D) Turn key/ign to Ign ONLY, (No lights) and then Kick thru ONCE good and clean, NO THROTTLE Keep your dirty hands OFF the throttle you filthy Ape!. D) Allow the bike to run on the enrichener for a good 2 min,, if you can blip gently the throttle and it stays on then its getting warmed up. Slowly lower the levers for Enrichner. Blip throttle gently. Take off slowly and allow oil to warm.
    Morons who run hard with cold oil wont ride long or far. My bikes start one kick every time. I joke with a mikuni and Boyer if it doesnt start first kick you forgot to turn the key or gas on.
    None of this priming shit. thats for panheads and shovels.

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    Good info from Doug...12
    L.p.
    Periodic maintenance, esp valve adjustments, will help keep it starting easier.

    Enrichner, choke, ticklers. Whatever one has, use sparingly.

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    "Periodic maintenance, esp valve adjustments, will help keep it starting easier." THATS the truth! I am always a bit surprised (And I have been wrenching on these bikes since the 1970s) how much difference a proper valve adjustment makes. Same goes for many Asian bikes. I have always had a number of Honda's especially the CB750s and I have a routine where I check and adjust the cam chain, Points (Points run just fine in a CB750 but I still prefer electronic ignitions,) Valve adjustment, and sync the carbs. My wifes old CB (The Linda Growler) people were amazed at how easy it started.
    On old Limey bikes, Tyler at Lowbrow early on in his career came out with a Triumph shirt and had "Ride Wrench & Repeat" on it. (I Suggested some of his early designs) That is very true statement. Once you learn the drill its no problem at all and easy to do. But I have always said there are 3 kinds of Triumph owners (or any Limey bike for that matter)
    #1) Right out of the gate when selling a bike the new owner grasps proper maintenance and servicing, Has either owned one before or is very perceptive and takes instruction and suggestions well. Asks the right questions and actually READS tech materials.
    #2) Takes a lot of education, perhaps a few unfortunate incidents to get the point across (or expensive mistakes $$$$) But learns the drill and achieves competency eventually. Nothing wrong with Ignorance, we all have to learn somewhere and sometime. Ignorance CAN be fixed. Stupid cant.
    #3) Big on attitude. Knows it all But does everything wrong. Screws up a lot of stuff. Gets mad and parts out their bike on the internet. No amount of coaching or education can fix this one. Best case scenario is someone steals their tools before any more damage can be done. Once ID'ed, they should be strongly and forcefully sent to the Honda Dealer or the local HD dealer and encouraged to buy something new under warranty and serviced by the dealership. At best, allow them to bolt on some Live to ride and fringe leather bling but they will probably screw that up.

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    The primer kicks don't count - I like that! But still it needs those 3 kicks and I'd like to bring it to a finer point of tune. The Mikuni manual is on order - thanks for that - and I'm sure it will explain the idle screw which I don't understand what it does as the point of it is in the middle of the barrel and doesn't go into a jet of any kind. Thanks for taking the time for the replies - much appreciated. Lots of good info for me here. I'm real stubborn and determined and have a lot to learn but I'm handier than most and I'll get there. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanonevol View Post
    The primer kicks don't count - I like that! But still it needs those 3 kicks and I'd like to bring it to a finer point of tune. The Mikuni manual is on order - thanks for that - and I'm sure it will explain the idle screw which I don't understand what it does as the point of it is in the middle of the barrel and doesn't go into a jet of any kind. Thanks for taking the time for the replies - much appreciated. Lots of good info for me here. I'm real stubborn and determined and have a lot to learn but I'm handier than most and I'll get there. I'll let y'all know how it goes.
    LOL If you are counting the primer kicks you will never have a 1 kick bike unless it's a warm one bike kick......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    LOL If you are counting the primer kicks you will never have a 1 kick bike unless it's a warm one bike kick......
    Why not!! This is my original point. My valves are well adjusted so what part of my carburation should I address? Or ignition I suppose. Thanks again for all the replies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanonevol View Post
    Why not!! This is my original point. My valves are well adjusted so what part of my carburation should I address? Or ignition I suppose. Thanks again for all the replies.
    I guess the easiest answer is fuel.... Without fuel in the cylinder it won't fire plain and simple..... When you shut off your bike it's hot, when it sits over night the fuel evaporates that's in the cylinder... So it's not going to fire until it gets fuel back in there..... Hence the prime kicks....Does that make since???

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    Thanks, I get that and it makes since but there are bikes that start with one kick, no?

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    This is getting dumb, Priming kicks are for antiquated designs like a Knuckle or Panhead, even some shovelheads. They have a convoluted intake design with very large intakes, valves and almost zilch for vacuum signal. So a prime kick(s) make sense to get some fuel into the combustion chamber. A good S&S intake and carb eliminates much of that with the improved intake manifold. (Compare the originals to a S&S) as well as the S&S carb has an accellerator pump so when you twist the throttle 2-3 times it squirts fuel shots directly into the Throat. This minimizes the amount of time to get the fuel past the intake valve to the combustion chamber.
    When the system is NOT dialed in right, it can take a LOT of kicking before the beast lights off with these old HDs...
    A Triumph is a whole different animal. (Besides roughly half the size) So Carb has a straight shot into the head and combustion chamber, smaller ports, valves and decent amount of vacuum signal across the idle circuit in the carb means that the carb will actually feed fuel thru the idle circuit. Not to mention vapors and fuel mist is better atomized. A triumph just needs a whiff of fuel to light off. If the bowls are dry who gives a rats ass? Follow the procedures i wrote above.
    IE: Turn on the fuel tap and with a mikuni, pull the lever for the enrichener. The bowl will refill by gravity. (Not just a good idea its actually the law),, the enrichener circuit has its own feed for fuel.
    That is why it is CRITICAL you have the right size jets, slide and size carb and when you do it works like a charm. Dont even TOUCH that throttle grip. It works so well its scary. Piece of cake. Dialed in ONE FRIGGIN KICK...No primes, Its all incredibly simple. (Assuming good spark, proper timing).
    Many people get hung up on preconceived notions. Theres a saying that all carb problems are electrical and all electrical problems are carb. Cant count how many times I have seen morons get out a screwdriver and start turning the adjusters on a carb when they had no idea what the real problem is. (Probably dead battery)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougtheinternetannoyance123 View Post
    This is getting dumb,
    Yep I agree, very dumb... Your talking about a S&S with accelerator pump my S&S L doesn't.. I doubt if his mikunis have one either... I've never seen an older Triumph or Harley without an accelerator crank with one kick after sitting over night... Now if it's hot/warm sure.... My Pan will do it 99% of the time and one kick when cold with three prime kicks...

    You gave a lot of great info but I don't think it applies to his problem... Now in a perfect world your description is spot on........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanonevol View Post
    Thanks, I get that and it makes since but there are bikes that start with one kick, no?
    Yes there are bikes that crank the first kick, but it depends on the type of carb you have... Like the guy said above... I was going by what you said you have... To address your problem...

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    "Your talking about a S&S with accelerator pump my S&S L doesn't.. I doubt if his mikunis have one either... I've never seen an older Triumph or Harley without an accelerator crank with one kick after sitting over night... "
    Most people with a S&S are running a E model, and if really crazy a G, both of which have a Accelerator pump. This is common for any big inch motor, same as a Dellorto and many others. I was talking in generalitys comparing a big inch motor to a Triumph, Not getting into every variant of S&S product line.
    The relevance to the discussion was you guys were talking on and on about priming kicks. Thats a HD thing, and my point is that a Triumph does NOT need priming kicks, not my 48, not my 79 or the 125 other Triumphs i have. Heck,, 126 counting my Triumph T25. Triumph twins dont need priming kicks.

    More relevant is the guy has a Boyer and a Mikuni (We still dont know what KIND of mikuni- doubt its a HSR) but assuming the most common type fitted to a old Triumph 650 most likely its a VM Round slide. Nor do we know if its properly sized or what jets or slide is in it. Not unheard of for some one to slap a dirt bike Mikuni on a adapter manifold. I have done it myself but I DO go thru them and put all the right parts on them. If he gets the manual, he can go thru it and make it right. If so it will run amazingly well. Many of my old shop customers said it was the best upgrade they ever did.

    As to not seeing a Triumph fire up one kick after sitting.. I cant speak for your experiences, But in my world I would be horribly embarrassed if my Triumphs dont start 1st kick every time. Cold or hot. I used to keep one of my bikes near the entrance for my shop and used it all the time as a demo for customers. When they came in with ignition problems are clapped out and worn out Amals, I would point them to my bike and tell them to fire it up and take a ride. I sold a LOT of ignition and carb kits that way. "Why doesnt my bike run like that?" I have an old customers bike up on a bench right now redoing parts of it. At 82 he sold it back to me but he bought it from me when he was early 60s. He was one of my best endorsements and references. He told people the only reason an old guy like him could still ride an old Triumph was because of the Boyer and Mikuni. And yes.. Wallys bike started first kick every time. Cold or hot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougtheinternetannoyance123 View Post
    but assuming the most common type fitted to a old Triumph 650 most likely its a VM Round slide.
    You know what assume means right???????

    Now your guessing..... Or reading your information wrong like the guy said on the other Triumph thread where the guy want's to the years of the bikes....

    I still say a one kick bike all the time hot and cold every time without a prime kick on a vintage Triumph or Harley without an accelerator pump is a pipe dream.........

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    Excellent! I will get there. I didn't build it and this bike just wants me to earn it and I respect that. By the way, yes, they are Mikuni VR Round slides and I measure them to be 30 mm. The builder was a Harley guy (priming kicks) mainly and quite competent by the looks of it - and nothing stupid or ugly or flashy on the bike. I would think that he put in the recommended jets and such but won't know until I get into it. Can't assume. So, Doug, you have vast experience. What would be the recommended jets and slides and such? Or - what would you look at if it was your Triumph? Again it's a 67 with a 750 bore kit with very low miles on since. My coil checked out fine by the way.
    None of us are getting any younger...I hope to be riding when I'm old (er).
    Last edited by Nanonevol; 04-19-2017 at 3:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    You know what assume means right???????

    Now your guessing..... Or reading your information wrong like the guy said on the other Triumph thread where the guy want's to the years of the bikes....

    I still say a one kick bike all the time hot and cold every time without a prime kick on a vintage Triumph or Harley without an accelerator pump is a pipe dream.........
    I can see why people call you a troll. I just tried to help the guy, and gave him a bunch of info based on limited information, you are not helping at all so I am done here. Cya!

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    So, VR series carbs came on a million different bikes. Again, We will assume they probably were ordered as a kit from a distributor like Sudco or Rocky Point cycle. So, SHOULD be in the ball park. But they could just as easily been some dirt bike carbs adapted. So only way is to check everything.
    ** Fun factoid. I haul this out everytime some ignoramus says "I wont put some jap crap on my limey bike" The VR series round slide carb is a AMAL design, sold under license to Mikuni. Mikuni has been using AMAL designs since 1923. Amal came out with an improved carb and the British bike companies refused to buy them, At one point Amal lost 1 pound on every carb they installed on a Triumph-BSA-Norton but made up for it in spares sales. So without a market for the improved carbs Amal sold it to Mikuni. When US emissions/imports forced their hand they finally did install a new carb version, The Amal Mk2 Which if you study it is only marginally different than a VM,**
    So, read this page and you can better understand WHY a idle air circuit is so important as well as the correct jets. Its for a AMAL concentric but the principles are the same for ALL carbs.
    SEE: http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

    At the bottom of that article is some info on Mikunis.

    Heres a page with a quick search that has ball park settings for Mikunis, I havent used it but looks impressive. My stuff is mostly in notebooks in my shop, but perhaps this will help,
    See: http://www.geckokustoms.com/blog/50-...ing-table.html

    My ballpark recomendations is for a regular 650 a single VM 32 is best. For a hot rodded 650 or 750 up to a single VM 34 can be used properly jetted. Single carbs have better low end, torque and easier to maintain.
    For dual carbs.. dual 28s to 30s is best, But up to VM32s, Again you have to jet, needles and slides accuratley to get good response.

    The key here is how the carb responds to the engine. You HAVE to have the right parts because EVERYTHING is driven off that vacuum signal. Again, read the Bushmans article and you will understand. Also dont forget B7ES NGK plugs.

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    Ok I thought about all of your post over dinner....

    Yes I'm sure you might be right, But were not talking about you and the way you build bikes or me for that matter... And were not talking about freaks of nature... Hell I had a 66 shovel back in 1974 that I could crank with my hand... And I could do that anytime I wanted.... I made a lot of money betting people in bars......It was just a freak of nature because it is for damn sure I didn't know what I was doing back then....
    I use to think the same way as you when I first got on forums... You need to remember many of the people that post questions on CC have almost no knowledge about bikes and very little tools to work with...

    So telling them that they can build a freak of nature is setting them up for a fall...........

    Just my 2 cents

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    How many revolutions are you getting out of one kick on a Triumph? Not more than three, if even.
    And at what RPM? Um, slow.
    Is the barometric pressure in your favor today? What about the smog? And relative humidity?
    How many people have gathered to witness the beast come to life?
    Does your cool one handed Zippo lighter trick work every, I mean, every time?

    Tattoo is more righter than Mr Annoyance, in my humble opinion.

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