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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougtheinternetannoyance123 View Post
    Sounds like a sticking float, check the fuel source and flush it, a bit of dirt or rust or just crappy fuel (Any fuel with oxygeneated which is with ethanol is crappy fuel) can cause this. pull the float needle and flush out, check float operation. If the floats are not set right it will also run rich (Smoke and fouled plugs).

    What size jets do you have? What does the literature tell you? Thats the point of having the data, check all the settings and jets, slide, needle etc.
    "Setting up the VM Mikuni's for a British twin is not difficult. The following list is a starting point, make adjustments as required by road testing.

    On a 650/750 Twin (Triumph &/or Norton) for a PAIR of Mikuni VM's 32mm dia, use pilot 20-25, throttle slide 2.5, needle jet type 159, needle jet size P-2, P-4, needle 6DH2, 3, or 4, Main 220-230, air jet 1.0.

    On a 850 Norton for a SINGLE Mikuni VM 34mm dia, use pilot 30-35, throttle slide 3, needle jet type 159, needle jet size P-4, P-6, needle 6DH3 or 4, Main 260, air jet 1.0."

    On a cold bike, use the enrichener levers, and one kick (NO Throttle). Should start EVERY time like that
    Only time will tell if he can create another freak of nature..........

    By the way why are you taking about a Norton???? He doesn't have a Norton does he??????
    Last edited by Tattooo; 04-24-2017 at 5:27 PM.

  2. #42
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    We'll see, but I won't consider it a freak of nature, nor your hand start Harley. Just a properly set up bike.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanonevol View Post
    We'll see, but I won't consider it a freak of nature, nor your hand start Harley. Just a properly set up bike.
    He can tout all these long winded this and that, that has nothing to do with your problems all he wants but, I'm just afraid he is setting you up for a fall..... That's all..... But I do wish you luck.....

  4. #44
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    Nanonevol: I am assuming you are still sorting out your carb issues. You now have all the info and tools to make this work so its just down to wrench time.

    To address your comment about the Charging system, I might post up a tech post on what most people will run into on a bike like yours as well as typical parts used. But I suspect what you are talking about is called a 3 phase high output system. Early Triumphs (most up to 65) actually ran a 6v alternator, eventually 12v but they were all pretty weak systems.

    "A gentleman does not motor about after dark" Joseph Lucas (Prince of Darkness)

    So, Lucas did develop a high output system for electric start bikes, even those were a tad weak and they were called "Starting assist" So EMGO & Sparx came out with a high output system like the Lucas and often called a 3 phase system. Ill include pix in my tech post but basically the stator and rotor have more segments or poles, They use a solid state Reg/Rectifier but are wired different than the single phase charging systems. Original systems used a Zenor Diode and selenium rectifier, You dont want that.

    I would also suggest checking timing if you have not already. I can illustrate how to do that with a timing light and pictures if you are not sure. Depending on the pistons and cams, and year of head each motor has a sweet spot, but with a Boyer its easy to time and once timed I loctite things down, mark the timing marks and forget about it. They really are very reliable. Check your battery well though, As I said, Older Boyers are really voltage sensitive, some batteries seem to check ok, (12v) but dont have any capacity (Amps) and that can cause problems as well.

  5. #45
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    Thank you! The seller did mention that setting up the timing was a bear. I would like to check it with a timing light and learn how to do that
    Meanwhile I'm absorbing all the Mikuni information and ordering some jets and a slide today. My pilot jets are already 40 but I'm going to try 45 given that the air screws are only 1/4 out and the starting issues. That puts me out of range of what I see others using but then again my VM's are only 30's and most seem to have 32's. And my slide cutaway is a lean one (2.0) compared to others who use 2.5 or more. It's all experimentation of course. I have to fiddle with my needles some more - I haven't figured out how to take them out of the slide so I don't know what they are yet. Lots of fun and it's raining so riding can wait.

  6. #46
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    Sounds like you are figuring it out, once you learn this stuff it will seem easy, but you have the tech materials now to sort it out.
    A couple notes to help you along. I strongly believe your issues are related to the idle air circuit, I said that from the beginning. Also the base settings I posted and in the victory library tech suggest a 45 is better choice, but when you buy these carbs as a kit, MOST dealers include spare jets up and down the range to dial it in.
    Slide transition from Idle to part throttle would be effected by that slide so it seems a good idea to play with that as well. It MAY well suit your application but until you try you dont know.

    Wait,, 45? Shouldnt it be 25? Again, check your tech data, and there should be something in there about the Pilot/idle jets and bigger numbers vs fuel/air
    Smart move spotting the air screw issue, I think you are on the right path.
    I can post some pix of the slides and needles if you like but I would wait and sort out the starting and idle circuit FIRST. A smart tuner does changes in increments so you know if you are moving 2 steps forward or back. Too many changes at once leave you wondering.

    As to a pair of 30s vs 32s,, Actually the 30s are a smarter choice depending on riding style,, On a chopper most riding is around town and freeway cruising. You are not racing flat track. So the 30s are a better choice if set up right. (Bigger is not better) The 30s are more responsive and give better power from off the line well into mid range, The only advantage of a bigger carb is for full throttle. On the street the bigger carb is lazier, harder to tune, and fouls plugs.

    I cant see what primary cover you have in your pix,, Is it plain or does it have a small access cover over the Alternator? If so,, removing that cover you can use timing marks and thats the easiest way to do it. I have a FUBAR primary cover in the shop and on older unit triumphs I put it on to time, once timed I swap back the stock one.. If you dont have that style of timing cover/primary cover and no access to one, then you CAN mount up a timing wheel, but its a LOT harder to do.
    The good news is that ONCE you have timed it, you can mark all the timing settings and loctite stuff down, You never have to mess with it again unless you remove the timing cover for some reason. If I get time I can post some pix and tutorial on how to time these using a timing light.. Perhaps someone does already on the internet. I havent looked.
    One key though is that a lot of people have issues with. With a Electronic ignition (EI) When you hook up the timing light DO NOT use the bikes battery, Instead use a good bike or car battery. (Hook up a charger to it as well so to make sure you have full power going to the light). Of course you still hook the lead to the spark plug wire (Either one will work, doesnt matter) but run the power from a different battery than the bike. If you dont the timing light freaks out and wont work right. (Dirty signal)

  7. #47
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    When you get it running just right,, and you WILL get it there,,, Its gonna look like this. Trust me.Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #48
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    Ha! I'm sure it will! I'm a hetero - I love that!
    Anyway, yes the pilot I have is a 40 - larger than what others recommend (except that the Sudco manual does specs 40 but not for any particular application). My other jetting is unusual too and generally richer. My jet needle is a 5L1 and is shorter than the Victory manuals and the needle jet is a 176 which is a Bleed type while Victory and others say use a Primary type. My main is a 260 and my air a 2.0. And - I was wrong - the slide cutaway is 2 mm and that is also richer than Victory's 3.5.
    This all makes me belive that the carbs possibly came from a different application and were installed, found to generally run and left at that. I find that more likely than these unusual jets being arrived at through rigourous testing. I've yet to get past the starting, idle circuit though but it may be that I'd get better results going back to what others have arrived at as a new baseline and taking it from there.
    I have a plain primary cover. Are you saying I have to reset the timing every time I take the cover off?

  9. #49
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    As i said earlier,, It is NOT uncommon to have someone pickup Mickey_rooneys at a swap meet or somebodys parts stash and could be off a dirt bike or some UJM application. I have done so myself often. However you have to go thru the carbies to set them up for your application. *IF* they had been ordered from a dealer such as Rabers parts mart (Great people, ask for Richard or Mike, tell them you want the #Doug Promo code), Rockey Point cycle or the many other dealers selling the Mikuni kits then it should be in the ballpark already and would have came with a manual, and a selection of jets to dial it in. So me thinks these were a parts bin or swap find. Ill post up some pix of some examples..
    But to answer your question, I would suggest going to the base line settings suggested by others. I *KNOW* there are many other forums where people have asked this question and many others have posted settings so this is not a new issue. But the ones I posted should work.
    One other thing, IF you swap slides,, TRY to get a heavy chrome plated brass one. They work the best for your application, Many other applications use a anodized or plated alloy lightweight slide.. thats good for a 2 stroke.
    MAP cycle are good folks, Been dealing with them for 3 decades,
    See: http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/f...carb-kits.html
    I knew Tyler back when he was still operating out of his garage, Good guy, (Good pix there too)
    See: http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/mikuni...64-mid-68.html
    These guys have ALWAYS given excellent customer service if you buy kits from them, will talk you thru any issues,
    See: http://www.rockypointcycle.com/c-tri...carb_kits.html

    As to timing, Ill go to the shop and get some pix for you,, NO,, What I meant is you use a timing light on the PRIMARY side off the alternator rotor, if you dont have a porthole primary cover you can use a timing disc, But the timing is ADJUSTED over on the TIMING cover on the other side of the motor. (2 screws). If you remove the whole timing cover, then yes,, you disturb the pickup plate and rotor for the ignition. What I am trying to explain is when you dial in your bike, you can MARK all your timing settings, (IE: TDC, Fully advanced, BDC) and then they are always known. If you take things apart its very easy to just re-install to the marks and you are done. You NEVER rely on someone elses work, or stock marks as with the wonders of English manufacturing and totally unknown DPO (Dreaded Previous Owner) then you dont know if you have a variety of parts from different years on your bike,

    This is what this is all about. You have a bike but know little about it, What every owner for a bike with unknown history NEEDS to do is spend some quality time going thru things, and learn whats in it, what its setup like, and how to maintain it. Once you know all that, these bikes are actually super easy to own and maintain.
    Remember what I said at the beginning about the 3 types of owners? Soon, you can do this stuff blindfolded, in the dark and when riding you can HEAR and FEEL when its right and when its not. I can hear a British bike go by on the street or across a parking lot and tell by ear if its tuned and adjusted right. A fat tune will be FOP FOP FOP.. when its right it has a certain bark to it. The funny thing is with a stocker,, I can tell by ear if its got Concentrics or Monobloc amals.

  10. #50
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    Here is some pictures from down in the shop, Ill type up a summary on how to time the bitch tonight, I am in the middle of something else at the moment,
    But heres some pix about Timing, Ignitions, and Carbys. These are some of my parts stash so excuse the condition, Note there is flange and spigot mount Mikis,, the little set is for a Triumph 500 project, Also note it took one of my race carbs apart to show the GOOD slide, (Chrome plated brass) and how the needle and parts fit together. (its for a racing 500cc single). More soon.
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  11. #51
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    Okay this is kind of a PIA to type up, But alot of people are looking at this thread so hopefully a lot of people can benefit. I was thinking I might throw up some tech pages on these kinds of things for people just learning. It can save a lot of time and trouble. Also, There might be better write ups out there on the net. I have been wrenching on British for 40 years and just when you think you know it all you learn something new. Plus this is off the top of my head so EXCUSE me if I make a mistake or miss something. (Plus I got health issues, its what happens when a Drunk driver makes you into their hood ornament)

    #1 Rule, NEVER EVER EVER Have the key on and mess with the motor without having the spark plug wire hooked to a plug and that plug grounded. It kills EI Boxs. The spark energy needs to dissipate out the plug, if not, it burns up the brain box.

    So to time YOUR bike, (Triumphs-BSA-Norton are slightly different but basically the same) Jack up the bike so rear wheel is off the ground and bike is stable. Bike jack, milk crate whatever. Pull BOTH plugs, remove Rocker caps Exh & int. Remove the 2 screws or allens holding on the timing cover. IF you have a later style primary cover remove the 3 screws holding on the access port. If you have a late 750 remove the small plug over the alternator. If you have the early unit style primary cover, bummer! Remove that.
    Now, drop it into 2nd gear. ~KEY/Ign OFF REMEMBER!~ Now turn the rear wheel the direction of travel. WATCH the intake and exh rocker arms and go thru a few cycles. Exh closes, Intake opens then closes, THAT means that cyl is up on compression. (Suck-squeeze-Bang-Blow) That means the piston is coming up on TDC. Now.. take a paint brush stick, screw driver or small metal rod (Dont damage the threads, DONT get it jammed in there and dont let it get cocked in there) but as you come up to TDC it will push that rod up and then start dropping down again. ROCK the rear wheel back & forth at least 1/2 turn each direction and each time bring the rod to the very TOP position. Do this multiple times reducing the rocking motion until you can see and feel a point of Dwell at TDC. Thats TRUE TDC.

    What that means is there is slop in the timing gears (Gear backlash) and you have to eliminate that. Now, see the picture above.. Next to the timing cover-Middle row is the Boyer Rotor with 2 magnets. Just to the right of that is a small goldish colored tool. Its a good tool to have but not required. Look behind the cyl on the engine cases. Theres a Rounded head 5/8ths bolt. Remove that. The hole is approx 1/4" and theres 2 different threads depending on year. (Buy BOTH tools, they are cheap) that tool threads into that hole. Inside that tool is a small hole for a steel rod. (Not shown) you can take a long skinny screw driver blade and approximate this. It should go into the cases at a 45 Deg angle and SHOULD intersect AT TDC with a notch in the flywheel. If it does, IF, Then its a good thing to know and for the future you KNOW you can use it for TDC. But dont count on it. Some motors/cranks dont have the notch, some cranks have 2 nothces, sometimes the notch is not exactly right. But IF your motor does,, it makes finding TDC super easy. You just buy that tool and SNICK* Bingo, TDC every time. Whatever you DO NOT dick up that plug hole.

    So. We now know where TDC is. Its also a GOOD idea to mark your timing plate on the timing side. ALSO mark your alternator Rotor on the primary side AND where that rotor lines up. Now go look at the pix above again. In the picture I show the late 60s-early 70s Primary cover with the access port off. I also show 3 Lucas Rotors. (Sparx and EMGO Usually look similar) Note that 2 have timing marks, 1 does not. Early ET types dont have marks either but have special dowel holes on the backside for an alternative ET Ignition. The point here is you can USE those timing marks but dont trust them.

    Trust but verify. So now that we have true TDC verify all your marks. Now if you have a later primary cover see the 2 arrows I put on there. One at 4oclock is a screw hole. TDC should line up with that or a few degrees clockwise from it. Keep in mind there is 2 TDCs 180 deg apart for each cyl. Now note the second arrow, That is a small pointer on the inside of the primary. (The boss is there but sometimes the little pointer is missing.) THAT should be the fully advanced position mark. We will get to that in a sec. NOW,, IF you do NOT have that style primary and cannot borrow one.. You will have to rig up a timing wheel. Thats a PIA. You can print a paper one off the internet or I can email you a scanned one. Or just buy one on FeeBay,. They are cheap. BUT its gotta be metal. (Hot rod shops sell them too,, good for ALL engines and a good tool to have) The key here is that wheels gotta be able to hack at least 3500 RPM. ALSO,, the center hole HAS to be perfectly centered or its gonna wobble.

    So, if you are setting up a motor with the timing wheel you have to carefully mount it to the crank on the primary side. Too much to type on that topic but it IS doable. (This is the only way to time a preunit so suck it up). Then you need a good pointer and you set it up and zero it at TDC, Check your instructions (Boyer-Pazon-sparx- etc) but most motors are 38 deg, Some are more. Some less but you static time it to that.

    The timing mark on the alternator rotor should be 38 degrees BTDC.The pistons will be 0.415" below TDC.You can check this at the timing plug,behind the barrel.The 38 degree flywheel notch lines up with the timing plug hole.You just want to know where 38 degrees is on the rotor.Rotor pole position and phasing is not an issue.

    Static time it in this position (38 degrees),according to the EI instructions.The timing will then be close enough for the engine to start.The timing will still need to be set with a timing light. 35 would still be safe,but 39 may not be.One degree is approx 0.025" at the timing mark. Now check your marks on the timing side. Now look at the pix above. See the 3 stator timing plates? Notice 2 things. Each has a small hole adjacent to the center hole. THAT should line up with the magets on the rotor. Note the white painted dots on the magnets. Now, the other thing is 2 of the 3 stators above it you look closely have had the slots milled larger to give more timing adjustment. (I do this to all my ignitions to make it easier.) But you slacken the posts to rotate the stator back and forth to time it.

    Now, I will caution you to strap down the bike and get a helper or 2 because when running this can get very exciting and a bit dangerous. You reinstall the valve covers and plugs, fire it up and use the timing light. At idle and off idle it should run just slightly clockwise from TDC timing marks but as you rev it the internal ignition curve should kick in. 2500 rpm it should be full in, so rev past that and check it with the timing light. The pointer should point to the second knob-pointer. Or if a timing wheel if set up right it should be 38 deg. If not, then rotate the timing plate back and forth until it does. If it wont time right then the possible causes are timing setting on the cam wheels is wrong, Rotor on the end of the cam is wrong, And how to fix that is a whole different topic.

    But once timed, assuming the carbs are right, you should NOT get KNOCK at acceleration, Acceleration should be smooth and crisp. Take it for a test ride. Find a good steep hill. Get it on quick, slow and progressive, It should not pink, tink, knock or hesitate. Keep in mind you will NEVER hole a piston or burn a valve at idle,, but accelerating or under load is where engine damage will happen. Every motor has a sweet spot. Synch the carbs, dial them in, find that perfect timing setting then make your marks and you can always return to that. Write down all your settings. Jets, screw adjustments, timing etc.
    Thats the quick and dirty that I can come up with. Harder for me to type this than to just do it. I can tune these blindfolded. Maybe I should make a video. Hell, I bet somebody has already. Maybe go scope out YouTube. Cant guarantee all the info out there is right, but theres a LOT of people who know this so its not rocket science. This is just a lame attempt on my part. Hope it helps.

    I DID take a pix of another ignition unit. Basically the same as the Boyer, same principle. Brain box, Rotor with 2 magnet poles (Not as exposed) and a Stator plate along with hardware.
    *Note, the allen bolt that holds on the rotor to the cam has 2 different threads depending on year of cams. If for some reason you have both allen bolts dont cross thread or jam in the wrong one. They are fine thread Whitworth-cei and they dont interchange. Figure out which is which. The rotor has a taper to fit to the cam,, once tightened down its really on there. Thats another topic. but if the rotor is wobbling somebody was sloppy. I can show how to fix this and it sometimes happens so check the rotor spins true. Its designed the magnets pass by CLOSE to the stator poles but should NOT touch.

    Hope this helps.

  12. #52
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    That's great, I'll print that for later. I do have the TDC tool that contacts the flywheel and a couple other special tools. There aren't a lot of good videos out there - lots with bad lighting and sound and probably bad information. "Lunmad" has a decent one if you can get past his accent. I don't usually have the patience to watch them and prefer to follow written instruction.
    Hopefully my 45 primary jets come tomorrow and I'll give them a try to see what they do to my starting and idle. Then, I'll try putting in the recommended jet needle and needle jet and hopefully get some ride time this summer!
    Your being extremely helpful to this novice, I appreciate it and I'm sure lots of other people are benefiting.
    Last edited by Nanonevol; 04-28-2017 at 7:51 AM.

  13. #53
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    So Chad from Sudco tells me that the jetting I currently have (except my pilot is bigger) is what they have recommended for Bonnevilles for decades. That was a surprise as everywhere else I looked on the web was a different setup. It's quite different actually especially the needle jet and jet needle. The needle jet I have is a "bleed" type and looks similar to the emulsion tubes on my Fiat. The "primary" type everyone else seems to be using is one designed for 2 cycle from what I read in the Victory paper although they call for it also.
    I put in a 45 pilot and turned out the air mix screw a bit and starting is becoming easier. Still not a one kick bike but I'll get there. There are some other things I can try and I may even try raising my floats a bit.

  14. #54
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    Don't get blinded by wanting a one kick bike and it running like shit when you get it running down the road.........

  15. #55
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    I'll have to be very careful with the float because it affects every circuit of the carburetors operation.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanonevol View Post
    I'll have to be very careful with the float because it affects every circuit of the carburetors operation.
    That's what I've been trying to get across to you in one sentence at a time, not a fiction novel.....

  17. #57
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    Don't listen to anyone that says you can't do it. I did the same routine that you are doing now. Read up on Mikunis, spoke to Sudco, and asked a lot of people.
    I was told you can't have electronic ignition without a battery, and that a one kick T120 was not possible. I was also told that my bike would always leak.
    All wrong. Sometimes the bike is two kicks, usually one. No battery. Dual Mikunis and TT pipes with baffles. Pazon EI
    I won't give jet #s because you are on the right track. The numbers may be different anyway, every bike is a little different.
    Keep at it.

  18. #58
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    Thanks dougt, I appreciate that. We all know it can be done because enough people have done it. Not related to starting but wondering if you are using the bleed or primary type needle jet. Sudco says to use the bleed type but I have yet to see anyone else mention using it on any forum.

  19. #59

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    I run boyer power box and EI without a battery on my wee 500 with a single Amal and it is a 1 kick, sometimes 2 kick bike.

  20. #60
    Tom8336
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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
    I run boyer power box and EI without a battery on my wee 500 with a single Amal and it is a 1 kick, sometimes 2 kick bike.
    How did you get that working?
    I tried a full Boyer setup and no battery on my 650, and I just found that as soon as I switched the lights on it killed the bike. I even spoke with the Boyer tech team and followed the drawing and instructions they sent me. Still no good. I've binned off the Powerbox now and fitted a tiny lithium battery.

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