s&s breather timing marks

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  • worryman
    Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 63

    #16
    Yeah did a little online research and it seems most people with open primary and no return are running the reed valve, which is the setup on my bike. I'm not saying it's correct or safe.

    Comment

    • Dragstews
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2010
      • 13740

      #17
      The reed valve doesn't support the primary vacuum, that would require a rotary timed valve to pull oil from the primary on the compression and exhaust strokes...

      Sounds to me that since you already have the reed valve, you are wanting to put it to use.
      I say go for it...

      May be a good idea to run the crankcase vent line to the far rear of the bike...
      Could be seeing a bit of oil from the vent, being the air/oil chamber vacuum is also off line with the reed valve installed...

      BTY..... You from Missouri by any chance...??? ....
      Last edited by Dragstews; 09-06-2015, 6:17 PM.
      Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

      Comment

      • panheadjess
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2015
        • 266

        #18
        I remember when they first came out, and they were supposed to fit all the shovels, I think that in theory with the reed valve opening when the Pistons were on the down stroke, and closing when they are on the upstroke, there was supposed to be enough vacuum on the back side of that valve to scavenge the oil from the separator chamber, on a good tight motor with very little blowby I think it did just that for a little while (until the blowby got bad enough that it wouldn't fully scavenge the separator). ??? seems that S&S underestimated the blowby of the average sloppy half worn out shovel?

        Comment

        • Dragstews
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2010
          • 13740

          #19
          !!!... WHAT ...!!!

          Shovel's wear out..????

          Surely you jest ...

          Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

          Comment

          • panheadjess
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 266

            #20
            Knew I saved that 2006 stuff for a reason, don't want anyone thinking I'm crazier than I really am LOL. So maybe, if the top end is tight as a tic it may work O.K. till it gets a little wear on it?

            Last edited by panheadjess; 09-06-2015, 7:43 PM.

            Comment

            • worryman
              Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 63

              #21
              BTY..... You from Missouri by any chance...??? ....
              [/QUOTE]

              Haha.....no.

              Comment

              • Dragstews
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2010
                • 13740

                #22
                This link has mega info on the breather system....

                High performance motorcycle racing parts and custom motorcycle accessories. Krank Vent crankcase vent kits, motorcycle electronic fuel injection and performance ignition systems.


                In this link a word is said about the "Pro-Flow" oil pumps..
                Disregard that bit of tech.... They are no longer being made... Tis a bummer too, they are a Kick Ass pump to say the least about them... (Got a three stage on the Buell)

                Take a hard look at the spiral, plastic air/oil baffle that is installed inside the cam gear cover steel breather stand pipe (p/n 25329-91)

                Also one of these isn't a bad idea to have too.



                (Running one on both my bikes)

                Click image for larger version

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                Last edited by Dragstews; 09-07-2015, 7:04 PM.
                Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                Comment

                • worryman
                  Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 63

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Dragstews
                  This link has mega info on the breather system....


                  High performance motorcycle racing parts and custom motorcycle accessories. Krank Vent crankcase vent kits, motorcycle electronic fuel injection and performance ignition systems.


                  Take a hard look at the spiral, plastic air/oil baffle that is installed inside the cam gear cover steel breather stand pipe (p/n 25329-91)

                  Also one of these isn't a bad idea to have too.



                  (Running one on both my bikes)

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]63565[/ATTACH]
                  Thanks dragstews, appreciate all the info. Learning a lot.

                  Comment

                  • Dragstews
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2010
                    • 13740

                    #24


                    Guess ya came a long ways from your first question in your thread...

                    "This S&S breather has 3 marks on it. Which one do you line up with the cam mark??"

                    Had me going there for a few.....
                    Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                    Comment

                    • SSCycle
                      Member
                      • Nov 2013
                      • 67

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Dragstews
                      OK.... Tried to slip a Mickey in on me didn't ya.... !!!!



                      .............................................................................

                      What you have is a reed valve made for the Head breather Evo's....
                      It don't spin... No timing required....

                      If your using that in a Shovel.... Good luck..
                      It does not support the oil pull back from the Air/Oil separation chamber..

                      __________________________________________________ _____________

                      You don't want to use a reed valve in a bottom breathing engine. There are some out there in which it has worked, but no promises.

                      The reed valve and the rotary breather give you similar results in the crankcase. They allow the oil/air mist in the crankcase to escape into the cam chest when the pistons are on the downward stroke. This is when crankcase pressure is rising. When the pistons are moving up in the cylinders the crankcase pressure is going down and the breathers close to not allow the air/oil mist back into the crankcase.

                      In a bottom breathing engine (like a shovel or early evo) the oil mist works is way around in the cam chest and through the passages of the cam cover into the breather cavity in the bottom corner of the cam chest. Throughout this process the oil gathers in the walls of the chamber and settles to the bottom. There is a drain hole in the back of the cavity that leads back up to the breather gear bore. A rotating breather gear has a small hole at the back that applies vacuum to this hole and draws oil out of the settling pocket. This keeps the oil from building up in the pocket. If it did not happen, the oil would be pushed out the breather tube and onto the ground. A reed valve does not have this ability so it should not be used in a bottom breather.

                      In a top breathing hd engine that pocket does not exist so there is no bottom breathing port for the oil to escape through. Our engines still have the pocket and can be set up as top breathers, bottom breathers or both. With a reed valve though we would keep the bottom breather tubes plugged. The air/oil mix still needs to escape though so it travels up through the pushrods tubes and into the rocker boxes. It travels through the passages of the boxes and through the umbrella valves to the breather passages in the heads, then out through the breather bolts. The umbrella valves work in conjunction with the breather gear but does not replace it. I can't speak to how TP did it but I would not run without a breather gear in either ours or a stock hd case. The biggest reason for a timed breather or reed valve is to keep the crankcase pressure low and to help pull the oil from the crankcase. This helps the engine to run cooler and make more power.
                      __________________
                      [email protected]
                      S&S Cycle
                      Viola V-Twin

                      __________________________________________________ _________

                      Be a good time to throw in a S&S breather gear...
                      They have a longer window on the open timing and also a better oil pull back from the air/oil separator cavity to the gear....

                      Also make sure the port from the cavity to the breather valve bore is not blocked...



                      Stock gear on the left... Center is a S&S unmolested.... On the right is an S&S with an air ramp (Don Hotop) installed..

                      The elongated hole that you see in the end of both S&S gears allow for more time to pull oil out of the air/oil chamber, this makes for less oil and a drier chamber.... In turn the motor case vent will not be misting oil....
                      The air ramp deal helps direct air/oil from the flywheel cavity into the cam chest ... mostly for high rpm usage...
                      Bad part about it is, the screen must be removed... there goes a safety to arrest any big chunks of a blow up from getting into the cam chest and doing more damage...
                      The trick to that is to overkill the build whereas there won't be a blow-up..

                      lol you're gonna end up on the payroll Jesse

                      Comment

                      • Dragstews
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 13740

                        #26
                        Originally posted by SSCycle
                        lol you're gonna end up on the payroll Jesse
                        Hahaha.....

                        Great .. Just when I'm ready to retire and go hang with Al...
                        (He's got Central Air now..!! .... Hoping he also has a Big Screen TV)
                        Last edited by Dragstews; 09-08-2015, 11:21 AM.
                        Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                        Comment

                        • worryman
                          Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 63

                          #27
                          So I've got an open primary with the lubber and return obviously sealed, will that affect the way an original style breather works?

                          Comment

                          • Dragstews
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2010
                            • 13740

                            #28
                            Originally posted by worryman
                            So I've got an open primary with the lubber and return obviously sealed, will that affect the way an original style breather works?
                            Well now ....

                            That's all fine and dandy with not having the need for the pull back or oiling the Oem primary chain...

                            But you may see the need to get the oil out of the air/oil separation chamber...
                            Running the Reed valve won't be pulling oil from that chamber...
                            ........ "It ain't going to happen" ........
                            In fact, I believe that the Reed valve, installed, covers up the drilled port that is in the back of the breather valve case bore.

                            Now for what will be happening.
                            That chamber will be filling with built up oil...It has no place to go but out the case vent...
                            If you have a real good ring seal with very little blow-by, you may get away with running the Reed..??
                            Last edited by Dragstews; 09-12-2015, 5:36 PM.
                            Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                            Comment

                            • worryman
                              Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 63

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Dragstews
                              Well now ....

                              That's all find and dandy with not having the need for the pull back or oiling the Oem primary chain...

                              But you may see the need to get the oil out of the air/oil separation chamber...
                              Running the Reed valve won't be pulling oil from that chamber...
                              ........ "It ain't going to happen" ........
                              In fact, I believe that the Reed valve, installed, covers up the drilled port that is in the back of the breather valve case bore.

                              Now for what will be happening.
                              That chamber will be filling with built up oil...It has no place to go but out the case vent...
                              If you have a real good ring seal with very little blow-by, you may get away with running the Reed..??
                              Sorry man, what I was asking was when I switch back to the original breather will I need to change anything as far as set up or does it make no difference with the primary oiler/return plugged up? Just pop it in an line up timing marks. I obviously know I can't run the oiler with an open primary but I'm still learning and I know that once you change something, something else usually changes.
                              Last edited by worryman; 09-10-2015, 3:41 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Dragstews
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2010
                                • 13740

                                #30
                                ..... /// https://youtu.be/V2f-MZ2HRHQ \\\ ......

                                Oh.... Ok...

                                Yeah, just plug in the rotary gear and put on your sailing shoes ...
                                ..... https://youtu.be/vPGUFxyirzg ....
                                You can leave the primary plugs in, being you have no need for that.

                                Set up the end-play and you be done....

                                ____________________________________________

                                Being you have done away with the oiling for the primary...
                                If you wanted to clean up the looks on the oil pump...(Gets rid of all the plumping for the unused oiling system)

                                This End Cover is just the ticket....



                                Oil pump cover for models without chain oiler.
                                Chrome or Polished

                                Fits 68 to 91
                                Last edited by Dragstews; 09-10-2015, 4:28 PM.
                                Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                                Comment

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