s&s breather timing marks

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  • worryman
    Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 63

    s&s breather timing marks

    Hey guys trying to stick my cam back in my shovel and this S&S breather has 3 marks on it. Which one do you line up with the cam mark??
  • Dragstews
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2010
    • 13740

    #2
    Click image for larger version

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    If you wanted to do a bit of work ...
    Could set up a degree wheel and check the open and closing timing...



    Post# 176
    Last edited by Dragstews; 09-05-2015, 4:00 PM.
    Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

    Comment

    • worryman
      Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 63

      #3
      ????? Mine doesn't look like that?Click image for larger version

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ID:	1285463[ATTACH=CONFIG]63546[/A

      Comment

      • farmall
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2013
        • 9970

        #4
        Could contact S&S tech support. Companies wanna sell stuff, get the service you paid for.

        Comment

        • Dragstews
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2010
          • 13740

          #5
          Originally posted by worryman
          ????? Mine doesn't look like that?[ATTACH=CONFIG]63546[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]63546[/A
          OK.... Tried to slip a Mickey in on me didn't ya.... !!!!



          .............................................................................

          What you have is a reed valve made for the Head breather Evo's....
          It don't spin... No timing required....

          If your using that in a Shovel.... Good luck..
          It does not support the oil pull back from the Air/Oil separation chamber..

          __________________________________________________ _____________

          You don't want to use a reed valve in a bottom breathing engine. There are some out there in which it has worked, but no promises.

          The reed valve and the rotary breather give you similar results in the crankcase. They allow the oil/air mist in the crankcase to escape into the cam chest when the pistons are on the downward stroke. This is when crankcase pressure is rising. When the pistons are moving up in the cylinders the crankcase pressure is going down and the breathers close to not allow the air/oil mist back into the crankcase.

          In a bottom breathing engine (like a shovel or early evo) the oil mist works is way around in the cam chest and through the passages of the cam cover into the breather cavity in the bottom corner of the cam chest. Throughout this process the oil gathers in the walls of the chamber and settles to the bottom. There is a drain hole in the back of the cavity that leads back up to the breather gear bore. A rotating breather gear has a small hole at the back that applies vacuum to this hole and draws oil out of the settling pocket. This keeps the oil from building up in the pocket. If it did not happen, the oil would be pushed out the breather tube and onto the ground. A reed valve does not have this ability so it should not be used in a bottom breather.

          In a top breathing hd engine that pocket does not exist so there is no bottom breathing port for the oil to escape through. Our engines still have the pocket and can be set up as top breathers, bottom breathers or both. With a reed valve though we would keep the bottom breather tubes plugged. The air/oil mix still needs to escape though so it travels up through the pushrods tubes and into the rocker boxes. It travels through the passages of the boxes and through the umbrella valves to the breather passages in the heads, then out through the breather bolts. The umbrella valves work in conjunction with the breather gear but does not replace it. I can't speak to how TP did it but I would not run without a breather gear in either ours or a stock hd case. The biggest reason for a timed breather or reed valve is to keep the crankcase pressure low and to help pull the oil from the crankcase. This helps the engine to run cooler and make more power.
          __________________
          [email protected]
          S&S Cycle
          Viola V-Twin

          __________________________________________________ _________

          Be a good time to throw in a S&S breather gear...
          They have a longer window on the open timing and also a better oil pull back from the air/oil separator cavity to the gear....

          Also make sure the port from the cavity to the breather valve bore is not blocked...



          Stock gear on the left... Center is a S&S unmolested.... On the right is an S&S with an air ramp (Don Hotop) installed..

          The elongated hole that you see in the end of both S&S gears allow for more time to pull oil out of the air/oil chamber, this makes for less oil and a drier chamber.... In turn the motor case vent will not be misting oil....
          The air ramp deal helps direct air/oil from the flywheel cavity into the cam chest ... mostly for high rpm usage...
          Bad part about it is, the screen must be removed... there goes a safety to arrest any big chunks of a blow up from getting into the cam chest and doing more damage...
          The trick to that is to overkill the build whereas there won't be a blow-up..
          Last edited by Dragstews; 09-05-2015, 8:09 PM.
          Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

          Comment

          • worryman
            Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 63

            #6
            Originally posted by Dragstews
            OK.... Tried to slip a Mickey in on me didn't ya.... !!!!



            .............................................................................

            What you have is a reed valve made for the Head breather Evo's....
            It don't spin... No timing required....

            If your using that in a Shovel.... Good luck..
            It does not support the oil pull back from the Air/Oil separation chamber..

            __________________________________________________ _____________

            You don't want to use a reed valve in a bottom breathing engine. There are some out there in which it has worked, but no promises.

            The reed valve and the rotary breather give you similar results in the crankcase. They allow the oil/air mist in the crankcase to escape into the cam chest when the pistons are on the downward stroke. This is when crankcase pressure is rising. When the pistons are moving up in the cylinders the crankcase pressure is going down and the breathers close to not allow the air/oil mist back into the crankcase.

            In a bottom breathing engine (like a shovel or early evo) the oil mist works is way around in the cam chest and through the passages of the cam cover into the breather cavity in the bottom corner of the cam chest. Throughout this process the oil gathers in the walls of the chamber and settles to the bottom. There is a drain hole in the back of the cavity that leads back up to the breather gear bore. A rotating breather gear has a small hole at the back that applies vacuum to this hole and draws oil out of the settling pocket. This keeps the oil from building up in the pocket. If it did not happen, the oil would be pushed out the breather tube and onto the ground. A reed valve does not have this ability so it should not be used in a bottom breather.

            In a top breathing hd engine that pocket does not exist so there is no bottom breathing port for the oil to escape through. Our engines still have the pocket and can be set up as top breathers, bottom breathers or both. With a reed valve though we would keep the bottom breather tubes plugged. The air/oil mix still needs to escape though so it travels up through the pushrods tubes and into the rocker boxes. It travels through the passages of the boxes and through the umbrella valves to the breather passages in the heads, then out through the breather bolts. The umbrella valves work in conjunction with the breather gear but does not replace it. I can't speak to how TP did it but I would not run without a breather gear in either ours or a stock hd case. The biggest reason for a timed breather or reed valve is to keep the crankcase pressure low and to help pull the oil from the crankcase. This helps the engine to run cooler and make more power.
            __________________
            [email protected]
            S&S Cycle
            Viola V-Twin

            __________________________________________________ _________

            Be a good time to throw in a S&S breather gear...
            They have a longer window on the open timing and also a better oil pull back from the air/oil separator cavity to the gear....

            Also make sure the port from the cavity to the breather valve bore is not blocked...



            Stock gear on the left... Center is a S&S unmolested.... On the right is an S&S with an air ramp (Don Hotop) installed..

            The elongated hole that you see in the end of both S&S gears allow for more time to pull oil out of the air/oil chamber, this make for less oil and a drier chamber.... In turn the motor case vent will not be misting oil....
            The air ramp deal helps direct air/oil from the flywheel cavity into the cam chest ... mostly for high rpm usage...
            Bad part about it is, the screen must be removed... there goes a safely to arrest any big chunks of a blow up from getting into the cam chest and doing more damage...
            The trick to that is to overkill the build whereas there won't be a blow-up..
            ok so it looks like it shouldn't be in there? Is it as easy as just slipping in the S&S breather? can you explain the cavity to the breather valve bore a little more and what I'm looking for to make sure it's good?

            Comment

            • Tattooo
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2012
              • 12407

              #7
              Damn if people won't try and stick any johnny come lately device in a Shovel to make it better...... WTF

              Comment

              • worryman
                Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 63

                #8
                Originally posted by Tattooo
                Damn if people won't try and stick any johnny come lately device in a Shovel to make it better...... WTF
                seriously

                Comment

                • Dragstews
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 13740

                  #9
                  It is a plug and play deal with the install of the S&S gear..
                  That oil port in the chamber is in the lower right hand corner facing you...
                  It is drilled straight back toward the flywheels and then connects to a passage that is drilled going up to the breather gear bore...
                  If you take your hand and feel under the casting in that area of the case, you would feel a weld or perhaps a welsh plug... That is where the factory did the drilled port than plugged the outside hole....

                  Take a air hose with a rubber tip and blow air into that hole in the corner of the cavity.... With the gear out of the case, you should be able to feel air coming out of the drilled port at the back of the breather case bore.....

                  FWIW ....
                  Most people would used the reed breather valve in a bottom breather cause the bore has been damage.... Not really a good idea...
                  (EPA is looking for those)

                  If it is at the stock size you can bore the hole 0.030 oversize to clean up the bore... S&S does make the gear in the 0.030 O/S...
                  If the bore is still in bad shape after going 0.030 over, ... No choice but to tear down the motor and install a sleeve to get back to the Std size and start a new life all over again.
                  Last edited by Dragstews; 09-05-2015, 8:11 PM.
                  Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                  Comment

                  • worryman
                    Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 63

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dragstews
                    It is a plug and play deal with the install of the S&S gear..
                    That oil port in the chamber is in the lower right hand corner facing you...
                    It is drilled straight back toward the flywheels and then connects to a passage that is drilled going up to the breather gear bore...
                    If you take your hand and feel under the casting in that area of the case, you would feel a weld or perhaps a welsh plug... That is where the factory did the drilled port than plug the outside hole....

                    Take a air hose with a rubber tip and blow air into that hole in the corner of the cavity.... With the gear out of the case, you should be able to feel air coming out of the drilled port at the back of the breather case bore.....

                    FWIW ....
                    Most people would used the reed breather valve in a bottom breather cause the bore has been damage.... Not really a good idea...
                    (EPA is looking for those)

                    If it is at the stock size you can bore the hole 0.030 oversize to clean up the bore... S&S does make the gear in the 0.030 O/S...
                    If the bore is still in bad shape after going 0.030 over, ... No choice but to tear down the motor and install a sleeve to get back to the Std size and start a new life all over again.
                    Gotcha, in your experience and looking at the pic I posted... Does the chamber for the breather gear look machined or altered to you? It looks a little funky and I'm wondering if the stock type gear will work in there.

                    Comment

                    • Dragstews
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2010
                      • 13740

                      #11
                      Be hard to make that call with the reed valve being in the bore...??

                      Pull it and snap a photo of the bore...

                      But... What I can see of it, Looks bone stock, no tell, tale signs of ever having been sleeved... Again a but, if done by a pro, be hard to see a repair.
                      Last edited by Dragstews; 09-05-2015, 8:17 PM.
                      Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                      Comment

                      • Dragstews
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 13740

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Tattooo
                        Damn if people won't try and stick any johnny come lately device in a Shovel to make it better...... WTF
                        I pity the the Guy that goes into my 52 motor when it's my turn to take that long dirt nap..... Hahaha
                        (He's going to have alot of "WTF's")

                        And the Buell may be sharing floor space with the ....




                        Last edited by Dragstews; 09-05-2015, 8:42 PM.
                        Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                        Comment

                        • worryman
                          Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 63

                          #13
                          [QUOTE=Dragstews;694747]Be hard to make that call with the reed valve being in the bore...??

                          Pull it and snap a photo of the bore...

                          But... What I can see of it, Looks bone stock, no tell, tale signs of ever having been sleeved... Again a but, if done by a pro, be hard to see a repair.[/QUOTE
                          Click image for larger version

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Views:	1
Size:	329.3 KB
ID:	1285467

                          Comment

                          • Dragstews
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2010
                            • 13740

                            #14
                            Like that....

                            Take my 45 and outrun em all ..

                            Comment

                            • panheadjess
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 266

                              #15
                              That's a 77 down pinion gear, make sure you order a breather gear for the same year group, and check to make sure the cam gear is also (you might post a pic of the cam gear most 78 up style have a groove cut in the face). on an engine that has been messed with always check to make sure all the gears are of the same year group. The poor guy that put the reed valve in might not have known he was doing anything wrong, when S&S first put them out they said you could use them with the case breathers, but after some customer feedback they changed their tune.
                              P.S. You Will have an extra mark on that pinion gear (dates back to the generator motors for timing the distributor) just ignore it.
                              Last edited by panheadjess; 09-05-2015, 10:53 PM.

                              Comment

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