few questions about a dyna

[ElekVins]

I'm considering buyin' a 2005 fxdxi. It has about 16000 miles on the odo. Previous owners only did the lowest maintenance (oil, tires, brake pads, air filter). Has a K&N filter and Supertrapp mufflers, pretty much stock apart from that.

My questions are what should I be carefull/worried about? What to expect as maintenance/upgrade in the close future?

I know nothing about TC so you can tell me basics. I heard this model doesn't have the Timken bearing, making it weaker than the previous one.
How weak is it? Is it really a shitty engine or still pretty reliable?

[SpookyCC]

I have an '06 which I've done some preventative maintenance on. It may or may not be applicable to the 05, depends on when that one was manufactured. They can develop inner primary bearing failures, because many of the transmission cases in that year were sent out without the steel alignment dowels to align the transmission to the inner primary cover. Some transmission cases weren't even drilled for the dowels. I lucked out, and though I was missing the dowels, my case was bored for them. So all I did was order the dowels and slid them in while I had the primary apart. If you dont have the properly bored holes, you can get the dealer or a good machine shop to do it.

The other "issue" I took care of was the 2 piece stator they used. Some people experience the screws holding the rotor together coming out and tearing things up. I used my TIG welder to tack the screw heads to the rotor body. Make sure to clean and scrub that rotor with hot water and soap. I used a lot of harsh solvents and a brush to try and clean the weld area and still got my tungsten contaminated.

Most newer bikes should have the primary chain tensioner replaced with something better. I used the Hayden M6 tensioner.

[panheadjess]

With the bike having high flow air filter and mufflers, I'd want to know if has had anything done to the fuel management IE a power commander, SE race tuner, thundermax etc.... If not it's probably been running fairly lean. Lean = heat, and too much heat can cause damage and premature wear. Look at the chrome on the pipes, and see how far back the pipes the chrome is discolored, if it goes way back the pipe she's been pretty hot. Might want to have a leak down test properly run before you purchase to get an idea what shape the top end is in.

[bobscogin]

My questions are what should I be carefull/worried about? What to expect as maintenance/upgrade in the close future?
I know nothing about TC so you can tell me basics. I heard this model doesn't have the Timken bearing, making it weaker than the previous one.
How weak is it? Is it really a shitty engine or still pretty reliable?

The first thing you'll need to address will be the cam chain tensioner problem. They're known to fail prematurely. The 2005 should be a 5 speed and wouldn't have the primary bearing problem that the 6 speed '06 has. I think the last year for the Timken bearing on the drive side of the crank was 2002. This is just my opinion, but I'm not a Twin Cam fan. I had a 2000 model sold it and went back to a '96 Dyna with an Evo. I think it's a more reliable, and simpler, engine.

Bob

[SpookyCC]

I loved my evo, except for the idiotic rocker cover design. Replacing all those gaskets was the first thing I had to do.

The first thing you'll need to address will be the cam chain tensioner problem. They're known to fail prematurely. The 2005 should be a 5 speed and wouldn't have the primary bearing problem that the 6 speed '06 has. I think the last year for the Timken bearing on the drive side of the crank was 2002. This is just my opinion, but I'm not a Twin Cam fan. I had a 2000 model sold it and went back to a '96 Dyna with an Evo. I think it's a more reliable, and simpler, engine.

Bob

[panheadjess]

The first thing you'll need to address will be the cam chain tensioner problem. They're known to fail prematurely.

Bob

⬆️ Ditto on that! If the leak down test comes back good, and you buy it, fuel management (if not already done) and addressing the tensioner issue (with either gear drive cams or a hydraulic update) would be my first moves. As well as a good service so you know where you stand maintainance wise.

[SquashThatFly]

I just got rid of my 2000 FXDX. The bike was a beast and had 100hp with zero issues. 2000-02 had the timken bottom end. I ran Andrews gear drive cams to alleviate the tensioner issue.

As previously said, the cam chain tensioners need to be checked. Sometimes they wear out at 10k miles, sometimes 60k miles. It depends on riding style and rpm range and fluids used. As long as you arent building a high horsepower motor you should be ok with the bearing issues. If you build it, you can convert to the better bearings at that time.

[ElekVins]

Thank you all for the good advices.

Will defenatly consider changin' the primary chain tensionner and those stator screws.
Is there another way than welding the screws? Loctite doesn't do the trick?
Seems complicate to change stator if its screws are welded...
Maybe you can grind the little weld point, I don't know, have no idea how it looks...

Change of filter and mufflers was done at a dealership so I assume they modified the fuel management (?)
Seller says it's Stage 1, but didn't keep mechanic bills records/history.
I doubt he's able to wrench on his bike himself.

About the date of manufacturing, if it bring any information regarding the primary issues, it was first registered in June 2005 (in Europe), so I believe it was manufactured late '04 or early '05

[Buellbomb]

if a dealer installed the parts, the bike would be in their computer. You could give the service department a call and run your VIN, never know what you'll find out.

[panheadjess]

Probably best to get the leak down test, no matter what the dealer says about the fuel management. It's not that high, and will give you a good idea how much wear is on the motor before you buy. Stage 1 download from HD is their version of fuel management, but if I was buying, I would want to know, not trust the seller or the dealer. If you are particularly cautious you could pull an oil sample and have it tested, in conjunction with the leak down test this pretty much takes the guesswork out of the condition of the motor. If the owner won't let you have these two tests done at a dealership, he may be afraid of what you will find.

[SpookyCC]

Sorry, I meant rotor. I always get those two terms swapped around for HDs. It's the piece with the magnets.

I wouldn't trust any loctite in this case. Just a simple tack weld on each screw head and body will do it, then it slips right back on.

Looking at your manufacture date you may not have to worry about it.

Thank you all for the good advices.

Will defenatly consider changin' the primary chain tensionner and those stator screws.
Is there another way than welding the screws? Loctite doesn't do the trick?
Seems complicate to change stator if its screws are welded...
Maybe you can grind the little weld point, I don't know, have no idea how it looks...

Change of filter and mufflers was done at a dealership so I assume they modified the fuel management (?)
Seller says it's Stage 1, but didn't keep mechanic bills records/history.
I doubt he's able to wrench on his bike himself.

About the date of manufacturing, if it bring any information regarding the primary issues, it was first registered in June 2005 (in Europe), so I believe it was manufactured late '04 or early '05

[farmall]

Absolutely inspect that stupid fucking tensioner immediately. I've seen customer bikes with fragged tensioners including one where the chain went to metal and required a teardown and flush to get all the chips out of the engine. It also needed an oil pump since they go there first.

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/twin-cam-88-engine-technical-discussion/116972-cam-chain-tensioner-failure-survey.html

Note the prices to fix failed units or upgrade to gear drive if crank runout allows. Don't be scared but DO inspect.

[ElekVins]

Looking at your manufacture date you may not have to worry about it.

That would be great to have only the tensionner to look at....
Can anyone confirm that?
Did the MoCo made it better at some point in 2004-05?

[Dragstews]

... Big Bore that Sucker...

That way you can address all the other issues while your into it...
And get rid of those INA cam bearings....

( Say Vins... This will be bike number three for ya, won't it ??? ... Getting together a nice herd, a 67 FLH, a Pan motor in a VL frame and now this one,, Go Boy)

Think it may be time to get a little long winded on the TC chain drive....

Here is the ignored elephant in the corner……

There is a potential major issue in the Harley-Davidson Twin-Cam engines. This is a statement of fact, not a bunch of wild guesses. I’m not here to bash Mother Harley, but you should be educated to its causes, and possible solutions.

Okay, what issue are we looking at?
It’s a very serious one that is enough to alarm you. However, you can fix these defects and end up with a nice bike.
My objective today is to educate, and we are also going to outline some ways to fight back. Yes, even the new Harley’s have serious, potential problems. Even the expensive CVO (Custom Vehicle Operations) bikes have issues not to be taken lightly.

Here we go…..

The problem is the design of the cam chain system. It uses plastic “shoes” riding on the cam chains that can (and do) wear out. Harley has made some changes in later model bikes, but even with the new hydraulic tensioning system, it is not a true fix.
What is the problem?
The shoes rub against the two chains and the plastic shoes wear out. When they wear in extreme cases, there will be metal to metal contact and this grinding creates metal shavings that can result in a catastrophic engine failure. If not caught soon enough, this can be so bad that the entire engine can be destroyed; cams, pistons, crankshaft and even engine cases broken. It is a wickedly serious possible engine problem.

Be aware… it can fail as soon 15,000 miles (in extreme cases). Even the newer hydraulic system can fail at 50,000 miles or less. The cam chain tensioners have a section in every service manual that covers the Twin Cam engines and is very enlightening.
If your pipes are loud, you may not hear or get any warning. The oil pump passages can clog up without making any noise whatsoever except when the engine starts tearing itself to pieces.

The scary thing is every Twin-Cam engine has the potential to have the cam chain follower issue, even the new models. Check things out before this happens to you. If it has a cam chains, it has the potential problem.
It is our intent to make you aware that pre ’06 Dyna’s and the 1999 to 2006 Twin-Cam Harley-Davidson engines have possible, serious issues and they can mess up. How? In the most severe cases, as the spring loaded cam chain follower fails it shreds plastic material that fouls the rotary gear oil pump cutting off oil flow to the engine that can cause sudden catastrophic engine failure and destruction. Also, metal to metal contact in these shoes produces metal filings to disperse into the oil prior to being filtered by the oil filter. If this happens be prepared (worst case) to buy a completely new motor as rebuilding the engine may not be feasible. This is not a likely situation, but a realistic possibility.

Are the 2007 and newer, updated Twin-Cam engines immune? No. Do not be fooled. Hydraulic cam chain followers are now used to get rid of the stiff spring that put too much pressure on the followers rubbing on the cam chain, but this is “no cure” as it only “delays” the problem. Instead of the engine failing at 15,000 to 30,000 miles, it now fails at 50,000 to 75,000 miles. There is only one true cure… getting rid of the chain system entirely and switch to gear driven cams. Harley-Davidson should, in my opinion, make this a standard fix and not an after the fact option. If you can’t afford to install the gear drive system, then you need to disassemble and inspect the inner and outer shoes every 15,000 miles or risk engine failure. The shoe material can also clog the oil pump destroying the engine.

There are plenty of motorcycle magazines explaining how to fix this problem and they can fail beyond the factory warranty period. The problem has not been fixed; only delayed to fail above 50,000 miles and when the engine fails it may not covered under warranty. Check the fine print in your extended warranty as this cam chain related failure may not be protected. Dealers will tell you it is a failed maintenance issue unless you take the steps we suggest.

You won’t even get a straight, honest answer from Harley dealers regarding this engine defect. As I did research for this article, I called a local dealership, and the service writer would not answer my questions, and frankly gave me quite a song and dance, refusing to forward my questions and concerns to the mechanic or management. Disturbed and curious, I read a number of different service manuals, and while the drawing of what is good and bad with the cam tensioner shoes is published, there is no inspection interval listed.

This leads me to believe Mother Harley knows a problem exists and Harley-Davidson dealers are actively not giving straight answers to customers. How can they not have published inspection intervals? The only mention of this possible failure is in the troubleshooting guide under “Valve train noise.” You will not hear any rubbing sounds or receive any indications the cam follower has failed even if you have quiet stock exhaust pipes on the bike. This is an issue that nobody wants to talk about, but is a real threat to your pocket book.

OK, now that we have ruffled everybody’s feathers, how can we combat this? S&S has truly been visionary in solving this issue. They had the foresight to develop a gear drive system to combat this very issue. It is my opinion, that all Twin Cam engines should have this conversion done, so you can rest easy on your higher mileage TC engines. The gear drive replacement is an excellent and the only true bulletproof solution.

As an alternative to gear drive, our only choice would be periodic tensioner shoe inspection. While not outlined in any Harley Service manual I’ve seen, looking at them and replacing as needed should be done every 15,000 miles. There are nice pictures of what to look for, but no recommended inspection interval. If you decide not to go gear drive, this is emphatically recommended. This periodic inspection can make any future warranty claim valid. On earlier engines, an update to the later style hydraulic tensioners will relive pressures and delay required service, but periodic inspection is still recommended. Check things out before this happens to you.

One way to help understand what may be happening inside your engine is to cut apart your oil filter at each oil change. Look through the pleats for any metallic or plastic debris. If you see junk, it’s time for your engine to come apart. You may be able to save your engine’s life by doing this.

[farmall]

Quick Google gets this but check further as I don't keep track. Upgraded hydraulic tensioners were fitted to later models.

http://patriothdblog.com/2013/11/12/inspections-and-upgrades/

I love the "properly serviced" bullshit. When was the last time you pulled a cam chain cover on your car or truck just to inspect the fucking chain guides????? Of course those guide shoes are much longer than a long postage stamp.

There is no functional reason for HDs shitty design but it does facilitate sloppy production tolerances and most dying Boomers don't ride the things very far before they switch to a mobility scooter or something else less likely to tip over at stoplights.

I find harleytechtalk and vtwinforum best for recent tech topics. There is no Harley TC I would not pull the cover and inspect because the effort is trivial. I'd take no one's word for it and SEE that area for myself, end of story. Not scared, just thorough.

You don't need a fixture to hold a dial indicator to check crank runout, just a clean hunk of flatbar drilled to match a cover mount hole or two (one beauty of indicators is they'll tell you if your mounting isn't secure) for the magnetic base to grip.

They sell a lot of gear drive cam kits for good reason. Alternate option, buy an Evo for your main ride. Far less complex motorcycle, highly reliable, and doesn't require nearly as many special tools.

Amusing anecdote: I visited the dealer where I bought my '88 FXR a while back just before he sold out and retired. I expressed happiness that it only got one top end job in all those years and I could have skipped that for a while. He proceeded to express his love for the Evo (he'd been a mechanic then dealer since the early Shovelhead era) and didn't say shit about the new Twin Cams surrounding us.