Ok, Im to my wits end (kickstarting Shovel)

[JohnnyBGoode]

If you had points it'd fire on nothin pretty much, I know EI need more jews.

Have you checked your pushrods? A tight one will cause a bike to run like asshole.

[Shacknasty]

A resting battery should read 13 volts or a little higher. You definitely need a new battery or, at the very least, a good recharge. Low voltage will make yer motorsickle run like crap and make it hard, if not impossible, to even hickstart. Next step is to test the charging system,

After you get yer bike started, put yer voltmeter on the posts of the battery and rev to 2500 rpm or so. You should see 14 volts or a little higher. Let us know what ya find.

You are veeeery close now...

a friend was telling me how i should probably get a mag -- he loves how reliable they are and how they help atomize fuel in higher RPM's and help bring out some of the power on bigger-inch bikes. that's all true...

A mag does not "help atomize fuel" as a magneto has nothing to do with the fuel - it merely makes the spark. What the mag does is make a more reliable and hotter spark as the rpms rise. The faster you go, the better it works. Until, of course, you reach the point of diminishing returns...

[Shacknasty]

One other thing that seems to help, or at least reduce the effort needed to start yer bike, is the nine o'clock kick. After all the prime kicks and finding compression, when yer ready to kick 'er like ya mean it, do not allow the kicker arm to return all the way to the top of it's stroke.

Stop and hold the kicker at the nine o'clock position. Turn on the ignition and give 'er the boot. I learned this technique from watching the town cop start his old Panhead. A short, lazy kick or two and off he went after another scofflaw speeder.

[WinstonWolf]

I have experienced the same thing as you. I have had problems with several nose cone ignitions. Once you ride for 20 miles or so, it would start to miss and run like shit. My advice would be to run a points setup. At least until you know the carburetor is tuned and not going to be the problem. You don't know what is going on now, and your chasing multiple issues (or so you think) Even new ignitions will turn to shit when they overheat, I would put money on that being your problem.

Remember, from 1978-1985, Harley had electronic ignitions with kickstart bikes, but they didn't put the ignition in the nose cone. Just a pickup in the nose with an external box. They did work just fine and could be easily kick started.

Beg, borrow, buy, or steal a points and condenser. Then tune your carburetor. With the bike tuned properly, any bike can be a one kick starter. My bet is, if its running good you won't even want to switch to an electronic ignition.

[sinks88]

Had 12.8 on the bat, redid plug wires, cleaned plugs. No go. My truck is down so I'm not able to go get anything at momment. I wish you guys were local!

[farmall]

it's just me so testing the plugs and kicking it over are a bit challenging, unless you got a idea for me.

You can clamp two known good plugs together at the base and let them dangle in midair since the coil fires "across" them from post to post. If you have a welder, tack weld the shells to each other.
Insanely handy.

I'd just order a points conversion/advance kit and go riding. (One belongs in your emergency spares kit anyway.) Gap da points, use a static timing light (bulb with two clip leads) and have at it. I normally gap the points, eyeball setting the points plate in the middle of its adjustment range, then tweak in small amounts until the bike kickstarts easily. Follow up with a timing light if you like.

Some older tech such as points ignition have very simple failure modes when they do fuck up and are dirt cheap to "troubleshoot by replacement". Suspect bad condenser? Trash it and install spare good condenser. Points not pretty? File if an emergency or toss in a new set.

No need to pay cycle shop markups:

Blue Streak DR2240X = points
Blue Streak DR90X = condenser

Maybe we need a canonical ignition troubleshooting sticky?

[TheSandman]

Had 12.8 on the bat, redid plug wires, cleaned plugs. No go. My truck is down so I'm not able to go get anything at momment. I wish you guys were local!

So the plugs aren't firing when you pulled them and kicked?

You getting 12v at the coils? I'm assuming your running 2 coils for the single fire? It would seem unlikely both coils failed. I'm guessing your module is crap. As long as all the other variables check good.


My advice........stick points in it and ride.

[kopcicle]

32398-91A is a dead hole ignition . Another better idea to keep late blockheads and twinkies from tearing up starter components , ease starting by way of allowing inertia to build before applying spark , all because of retarded initial timing due to EPA/CARB/CAFE /
32398-91A is a dead hole ignition. ask me how I know ...
Points work
VOES randomly fails or looses ground
I use the earlier Crane . My 73 doesn't know what VOES is
I'll include the following for reference

What is the Vacuum Operated Electrical Switch (VOES)? What does it do and why is it there?

All Harley Davidson motorcycle carbureted models since the 1984 model year have used the VOES to improve throttle response, increase MPG, and meet EPA requirements for emissions.

The VOES is a motorcycle part described as a vacuum ignition retard device. That is, under low vacuum conditions the switch is open and has no effect on ignition timing. Under high vacuum, the switch closes and advances ignition timing. Essentially, the VOES is like the vacuum advance in older type automotive distributors.

The VOES is a normally open vacuum operated switch that closes under 3-5" of vacuum. The switch is connected to a lead from the ignition module. Under high vacuum, 3-5 inches or higher, the switch closes. A lead from the switch to ground closes a circuit in the ignition module. This circuit advances the timing of the spark. The advance increases throttle response and decrease fuel consumption and emissions.

The vacuum hose is usually connected to a port on the carburetor or intake manifold depending on motorcycle year and carburetor. There are several different VOES switches used the mounting bracket style and operating vacuum being the main differences. The FLHT models have a different vacuum range than the other models. However, just about any VOES can be adapted for use by adjusting the point at which the switch closes.

The point at which the switch closes.

The switches can be adjusted by removing the potted plug and adjusting the setscrew. You will need an accurate vacuum gauge and vacuum hand pump. We have been able to set the operating point as low as 2 inches and as high as 7 inches.

Why would you want a VOES?

We have experimented with converting 1972 and later ignitions from points to electronic ignition. We have used Dyna 'S' conversions for H-D's. We have used Crane, Compufire, Spyke and other Harley Davidson conversion kits. With some of these such as the Dyna 'S', you still have to use the mechanical advance system. This requires service and routine maintenance.

Others work very well having digital advances and provisions for a VOES switch. We experimented with installing a VOES in a 1983 FX and found we have improved throttle response and better mileage. We also routinely install the VOES in custom built Harley Davidsons and even our own Kenny Boyce framed Harley FXR's use VOES with a Crane HI4 module. During Dyno runs, we found that part throttle roll on power was increased as was throttle response.

We believe that most street ridden Harley Davidson motorcycles will benefit from a VOES.

For racing applications or supercharged, turbo-charged or bikes using Nitrous Oxide, we do not recommend using a VOES. This is due to the possibility of a sudden timing change causing a backfire which can be a bad thing under these conditions!


Source: http://www.directparts.com/static/ar...arleyvoes.html

[Shacknasty]

I have experienced the same thing as you. I have had problems with several nose cone ignitions. Once you ride for 20 miles or so, it would start to miss and run like shit. My advice would be to run a points setup. At least until you know the carburetor is tuned and not going to be the problem. You don't know what is going on now, and your chasing multiple issues (or so you think) Even new ignitions will turn to shit when they overheat, I would put money on that being your problem.

Remember, from 1978-1985, Harley had electronic ignitions with kickstart bikes, but they didn't put the ignition in the nose cone. Just a pickup in the nose with an external box. They did work just fine and could be easily kick started.

Beg, borrow, buy, or steal a points and condenser. Then tune your carburetor. With the bike tuned properly, any bike can be a one kick starter. My bet is, if its running good you won't even want to switch to an electronic ignition.

Then why have I ridden daily in the heat of SoCal for years with my nosecone Dyna S and experienced zero ignition problems. Your statement is not even close to valid. I kickstart my Shovel in one or two kicks in spite of my overheating, failing nosecone ignition.

[WinstonWolf]

Then why have I ridden daily in the heat of SoCal for years with my nosecone Dyna S and experienced zero ignition problems. Your statement is not even close to valid. I kickstart my Shovel in one or two kicks in spite of my overheating, failing nosecone ignition.

I guess YOU are lucky then. When the OP puts in a new electronic ignition and it overheats in 30 miles and quits working right, a lot of fucking good it does him if your ignition works great.

I'm trying to help the guy out, because I feel bad for him. I have personally had more than one nose cone ignition shit the bed. The first step to trouble shooting is to eliminate potential problems, thus my suggestion to put in points, then to tune the carburetor. Then mess with electronic timing curves and the ignition, when you can be sure there are no carburation issues.

And guess what, my shovelhead starts in one kick too, just like my pan, evo (with electronic ignition no doubt), and all the rest of my bikes. Whoopty fucking do.

Do your research guy, its 100% valid. Guess what they mention on the first page... http://www.daytona-twintec.com/downl...structions.pdf

Anything and everything mechanical and electronic can and will fail at some point. One day when your Dyna S bites the big one while riding across Southern California in the heat, you'll remember this post. I hope it doesn't, but maybe this guys has...

[sinks88]

Well today I called Crane and Dennis Kirk...(as I already paid good money for this)
and if this doesnt work with the returns and new ones....etc....I probably will go to points, but would have to get all the items: advance unit, condensor...etc

So first I am going to try to fix what I got.

The one thing I havnt done yet (which is of couse the first thing I should have done) is check spark....I will be doing that when I get home.

Crane had mentioned if Im only getting one spark, then switch wires on the coil and see if it changes, if it does that means its the coil, if it doesnt that means its the cone module.

Does that make sense to you guys?

If Im getting spark to both....then what? or if Im getting spark to none?

[TheSandman]

Well today I called Crane and Dennis Kirk...(as I already paid good money for this)
and if this doesnt work with the returns and new ones....etc....I probably will go to points, but would have to get all the items: advance unit, condensor...etc

So first I am going to try to fix what I got.

The one thing I havnt done yet (which is of couse the first thing I should have done) is check spark....I will be doing that when I get home.

Crane had mentioned if Im only getting one spark, then switch wires on the coil and see if it changes, if it does that means its the coil, if it doesnt that means its the cone module.

Does that make sense to you guys?

If Im getting spark to both....then what? or if Im getting spark to none?

Yes that makes sense to an extent. I had a cylinder quit firing on me on the highway, pulled off and checked everything. Long story short, my rear cylinder module on my dyna S died. So the one cylinder was firing and the other one wasn't. Swapped the coil and no change. That being said, I crane's modules are set up different, then yes, if one cylinder isn't firing, and the wiring and connections are good, it's the coil.

If your not getting fire to either, then the module is toast.

As far as a points kit, when I swapped points from EI, I bought a complete kit with everything needed as far as the points setup in the cone. I WOULD ADVISE PUTTING IN BETTER POINTS THEN THE JUNK YOU GET WITH THE KIT.

You also need new plugs, coil, and coil wires as none of the EI stuff will
Work with the points setup.

If you wanna call me, shoot me a PM and maybe I can help you over the phone a little easier. I hate typing.

[sinks88]

Ok went home at lunch and tested spark:

1) normal wiring, only spark to rear or short plug cable
2) reversed wiring, spark to front (long plug cable)-no rear spark
3) reversed wiring and reversed plug wires, spark to shork cable-no long cable spark

I also checked to see if the LED would light up, which it did, and it went off and on when motor cranked




Talked to Crane, they said that the coil is shot, then they also mentioned they are phazing out the HI-4, for the HI4N.....also for you crane guys, if you are not using the VOES, he said to go ahead and ground that wire, as the directions suck, and that if you dont you will be running the low advance curve, instead of the high curve. as when the VOES swiches it just grounds anyway.

So, at another 70-80 bucks I could upgrade, or just replace the coil free of charge
(on top of the fact I will have to go pull that stupid VOES wire and ground it.)

Hopefully, once that shit is taken care of I will be on the road again (fingers crossed)

ALSO....New update! Since S&S bought out Crane I talked to Al (with S&S) and he is sending me out the upgraded one "8-6101" and told me to "pitch that SOB, he didnt want to see it come back"

[TheSandman]

So you swapped the module wiring from the front cylinder to the rear on the coil and the spark carried?

Ok went home at lunch and tested spark:

1) normal wiring, only spark to rear or short plug cable
2) reversed wiring, spark to front (long plug cable)-no rear spark
3) reversed wiring and reversed plug wires, spark to shork cable-no long cable spark

I also checked to see if the LED would light up, which it did, and it went off and on when motor cranked




Talked to Crane, they said that the coil is shot, then they also mentioned they are phazing out the HI-4, for the HI4N.....also for you crane guys, if you are not using the VOES, he said to go ahead and ground that wire, as the directions suck, and that if you dont you will be running the low advance curve, instead of the high curve. as when the VOES swiches it just grounds anyway.

So, at another 70-80 bucks I could upgrade, or just replace the coil free of charge
(on top of the fact I will have to go pull that stupid VOES wire and ground it.)

Hopefully, once that shit is taken care of I will be on the road again (fingers crossed)

ALSO....New update! Since S&S bought out Crane I talked to Al (with S&S) and he is sending me out the upgraded one "8-6101" and told me to "pitch that SOB, he didnt want to see it come back"

[sinks88]

Yeah, first one was tested normally (and I only got spark to rear)....then I just switched the wiring on the coils (flopped spots) for number 2 and got spark to front, then for number 3 I swapped the plug cables (per instruction from Crane/S&S) (which was also flopped wiring)

I really dont get how that tells that the coil is bad, but according to Crane it did.
maybe I didnt test right
??.