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  1. #1
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    Default bearing support question and alignment

    Are bearing supports always used, no matter if you're running wet or open belt clutch? my set up is going to be a 1.5" belt in a repop panhead tin and not sure if I need to have that bearing support on the backside of the inner tin or not. This will be on a ratchet top trans with a cone shovel

    As for alignment, does everyone use this kit or something similar?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2

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    With a cone shovel, alternator equipped, and the long transmission mainshaft to clear the alternator, yes, you need the bearing support. Be warned, the last two that have passed through my hands have had the mounting holes so far off that they would lock up the mainshaft if the hamfisted managed to install them. The holes had to be drilled larger, or in one case milled into slots (way off). So check fit and alignment, and don't be surprised if you have to modify new parts.

    Jim

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    Good to know. Given the choice would you prefer milled (or filed) slots to hole diameter enlargement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post
    Good to know. Given the choice would you prefer milled (or filed) slots to hole diameter enlargement?
    You can of course file the holes, but the piece is 1 1/4" or more thick, so drifting an end mill through the hole is much quicker. If the misalignment is just a little, I would just enlarge the holes. These things don't fit nice like an inner primary anyway, although a positive location would be a plus for the shaft support the thing is supposed to provide.

    Jim

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    Your tranny don't have track lugs casted into the bottom of the case ...
    Only the trans studs are doing the work to keep the trans from moving around on the mounting plate ...

    If you plan on riding hard it would be a grand idea to beef this area...



    VT No: 17-7661
    Adjustable transmission mounting plate with a black finish. Features built in adjuster screws for a positive and even adjustment.
    The built in dual adjusters operate from the end of the 1/2" thick steel plate buy counter bored socket head screws. They permit accurate alignment of the mainshaft and are ideal for open belt drive models. The three holes at the front fit various frames.

    And ....



    VT No: 9919-3
    OEM No: 34725-26
    Transmission bottom stud kit for side valve models.
    Can also be used on Big Twin 4-speed models for rigidity when a primary belt drive is installed. *NOTE: 2 sets are required for this application.

    A motor plate would also add support ....

    Last edited by Dragstews; 08-24-2019 at 2:38 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragstews View Post
    Your tranny don't have track lugs casted into the bottom of the case ...
    Only the trans studs are doing the work to keep the trans from moving around on the mounting plate ...

    If you plan on riding hard it would be a grand idea to beef this area......
    Thanks you so much for this. I'll definitely be getting that mounting plate, seems like a great investment. as for the studs, are those specific to that plate? I have all four studs and they seem fine.

  7. #7

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    If the studs in the bottom of your case are good & tight, DON'T FUCK WITH THEM.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinNC View Post
    With a cone shovel, alternator equipped, and the long transmission mainshaft to clear the alternator, yes, you need the bearing support. Be warned, the last two that have passed through my hands have had the mounting holes so far off that they would lock up the mainshaft if the hamfisted managed to install them. The holes had to be drilled larger, or in one case milled into slots (way off). So check fit and alignment, and don't be surprised if you have to modify new parts.

    Jim
    Thanks Jim, great info as always. I actually have the support already I just wasn't sure if I needed it since I'll be switching to belt.I'm planning to do kick only, here's my setup

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinNC View Post
    If the studs in the bottom of your case are good & tight, DON'T FUCK WITH THEM.

    Jim

    hahaha thanks for that, probably just avoided a mess!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinNC View Post
    If the studs in the bottom of your case are good & tight, DON'T FUCK WITH THEM.

    Jim
    Yeah, might outta leave em along ....
    Pain to get them out and back in again....

    I don't have a problem with them, but I'm tooled up to do the work...



    This tool (One way roller clutch) locks on the stud, kinda like double nuts... A bit of heat and out they come...

    The locating studs allows for more of a foot area in the plate...

    To reinstall the new studs after a trail fit some heat again, red loctite, and a Jim's tool gets them in....

    Last edited by Dragstews; 08-24-2019 at 5:41 PM.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragstews View Post
    Yeah, might outta leave em along ....
    Pain to get them out and back in again....

    I don't have a problem with them, but I'm tooled up to do the work...



    This tool locks on the stud, kinda like double nuts... A bit of heat and out they come...

    The locating studs allows for more of a foot area in the plate...

    To reinstall the new studs after a trail fit some heat again, red loctite, and a Jim's tool gets them in....

    The problem lies not in the tooling, but in the case itself. The case tends to corrode around the studs (dissimilar metals), and so as you remove one, the case threads often come with it. It's not for nothing that the base studs are offered in first AND second oversize. Two other factors are the short threaded area in case and the fact that the studs must be oil tight, and the holes are through holes. All adds up to, leave 'em be until you have to fix them.
    And you guys with the old pan transmissions, you might want to limit the nut torque on those to 20 or 25ft.lb., because those cases are getting really old.

    Jim

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    70's and up cases are not old, Jim ...

    40 & 50's are getting back there....

    And sealing is mostly done with the locktite, but for a extra measure ....

    Last edited by Dragstews; 08-24-2019 at 5:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinNC View Post
    And you guys with the old pan transmissions, you might want to limit the nut torque on those to 20 or 25ft.lb., because those cases are getting really old.
    Jim
    I never use a torque wrench on a Harley bolt..... Unless it's a flywheel nut or something critical like that...... People need to learn when a bolt is tight...... If sure jim you know what I'm talking about.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tattooo View Post
    I never use a torque wrench on a Harley bolt..... Unless it's a flywheel nut or something critical like that...... People need to learn when a bolt is tight...... If sure jim you know what I'm talking about.........
    Hell I know what you're talking about and I haven't even finished my first HAHA. I had that issue when torquing the rocker box studs and it pulled up. you said the same thing than LOL.

    Great info and thanks for mentioning that tool. now I know when the time comes

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    Glyptal is a proven hot rod "casting surface smoother" (speeds oil drainback, first used in the flathead car era) and sealant. Also works for its intended purpose protecting electrical windings.

    People need to learn when a bolt is tight..

    Except there's no way to accurately train that except by comparison to a torque wrench + practice repetitions
    , which is why the aviation world trains that way from the start. I've formally trained many noob fighter fixers. One way to teach (and learn) feel is have the student torque to X number of foot lbs/units of choice then have them put an extra ~1/8 turn manually with a non-torque wrench not least because the wrench arm length will nearly always be different from the torque wrench. Of course it won't be an exact match but will be close enough for typical fasteners. I grew my calibrated wrist the old fashioned way but that isn't quick nor is there a consistent verbal way to describe it. OTOH when trained with torque wrenches new mechs/techs rapidly develop manual feel. Breakaway torque is not the same as applied torque because applied torque is dynamic while breakaway torque is static so having students attempt to learn by loosening no workee.

    Breakaway torque in the clockwise direction is used for torque audits. This is worth a read: https://www.srtorque.com/resources/w...k-away-torque/

    Thought exercise: Describe in text with no tactile demonstration or torque measuring device how to reasonably correctly torque 1/4", 1/2" and 1" diameter bolts. Your audience is an internet poster straight off the block with no formal or informal hands on instruction.

    70's and up cases are not old, Jim ...
    They like us ain't getting any younger or less brittle! Picture your fave '70s porn stars and supermodels then and now.
    Last edited by farmall; 08-24-2019 at 7:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firstripholdmybeer View Post
    Hell I know what you're talking about and I haven't even finished my first HAHA. I had that issue when torquing the rocker box studs and it pulled up. you said the same thing than LOL.

    Glad your learning and I'm glad to help................

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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Thought exercise: Describe in text with no tactile demonstration or torque measuring device how to reasonably correctly torque 1/4", 1/2" and 1" diameter bolts. Your audience is an internet poster straight off the block with no formal or informal hands on instruction.

    Yep I agree it's tough to learn for sure..... One thing I did in my early years is only use 3 fingers when tightening a smaller bolt with a wrench or ratchet...Use your thumb and two fingers that way you don't have much leverage.........

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    Farmall is once again correct. I was a 43151 AFSC in the USAF as well, although did more than that (Primary AFSC). I also prefer a clicker type Torque wrench properly maintained and have them checked once in a while by a instrument tech.

    Many people dont know that type of wrench is ALWAYS stored at the lowest possible setting. One few people know that is obscure but can get you dinged, or as a tool to fire a problem employee in certain tech fields is... "Tell me, what procedure did you use to warm up your torque wrench before use?"

    In the military and high end civilian shops where certs matter, you might notice a series of bolt heads on a plate on a fixture or workbench. The proper procedure remove the torque wrench from storage case, Allow to normalize to ambient temp and then use it at progressively higher torque settings on the Bolt heads with positive clicks each time. This is BEFORE useage on actual components. Things like acft wheels, brakes, landing gear people get pretty excited about when they fail or found to be improperly serviced.

    I DO have calibrated elbows and wrists, and these days they click as well. Another tool I still use is a comparator gauge. Keeps my finger tips calibrated as well. Its a rectangular strip with bumps and indents and measured off in Thousandths. I can rub my finger over a positive/Neg surface and tell you its 10 thou or whatever size.

    In other pursuits, I am also a certified Breast examiner, When I met Mrs Doug, I cupped her fun bags and named off the exact size of D cups and she slapped me. But 30 years later we are still together. I dont get enough in the field testing on breasts anymore and have to assess visually only. Not as fun. As a FAA licensed A&P and NDT tech I cannot certify them as Airworthy without hands on assessment.

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    Fingertips and fingernails are so sensitive they can pick up damage that's difficult to see. For decades Pratt and Whitney and GE used blind and legally blind inspectors to check fan and turbine blades. It's also standard practice on USAF flightline pre and post-flight fan inspection. Find nick, then use borescope to check if within limits. Props are also inspected by feeling for roughness.

    Fingers are badass. Fondle worn parts including round ones.

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    Seeing as i've just done EXACTLY what you are proposing to do here's a list of everything that needed doing (and photos too!!). To give some background i have a '71 Cone shovel, Ratchet top in Motorfactory case with ears on the bottom, BDL belt drive, complete tin primary setup.

    I bought the following -

    - Bearing support from APM
    - Paughco Tin Inner primary for Cone Shovel
    - BDL 1.5" Belt drive
    - JP Cycles Transmission adjusting kit - https://www.jpcycles.com/product/620...-adjusting-kit

    Here a list of all the work i had to do to get it all to fit and WORK

    - First thing is fitting the trans adjuster kit, i made new G-Box studs as mine were too short

    - Next i had to drill out all the bolt hole on the inner to allow adjustment/alignment
    - Holesaw clearance holes for the bearing support bolts/nuts

    - Chase all the inner primary threads due to the chrome
    - Grind down the weld lip on the inside to allow for belt clearance, then TIG weld this back together using barely any filler fire. (you can see where ive welded in the second pic)


    - The i had to machine the BDL clutch basket OD down for clearance


    - Had to make new mounts top and bottom for both the inner primary with vibration mounts.

    That about sums it up. the short is there is a lot more work than simply bolting things on needed. Not trying to scare you off but i found it hard to find an honest view on what was needed to get it all to fit.

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