I currently only have a high school education (only short schools and OJT in the military). I've built many many planes. 13 years, no smokin holes in the ground yet. As a matter of fact, I can count on one hand how many people at my place of work that have a degree of any kind. I'm just now getting around to college because I've pretty much dead ended (hate the feeling of being stagnant). I'm trying to stay around my field because I like it and it's what I know.
who the fuck told either of you two that you LEARN things in college?
Yep.
Dropped out of my mom's love garden speaking greek, latin, old english, norse, and reading sanskrit...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
you know what i learned in college? how much i fucking hate college. that's what i learned. and i'm graduating highest honors with an almost perfect GPA.
Then regardless the grades, you didn't stretch yourself. Maybe if you weren't lazy and self righteous, you might have figured that out
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
pardon all the famous quotes, but Zappa said it best: if you want to get laid, go to college... if you want to learn, read a book. it's that fuckin simple.
So you can read Homer and Herodotus in their native tongues? Zappa was right, books are human psychology placed on the page. Without the classwork needed to learn German, Italian, Greek, Latin and French, I wouldn't have been able to read Wittgenstein, Virgil, or Voltaire - I would have just had to take some translator's word for what they said. Again, you're defending your own laziness by using other's words to justify it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
i go to Rutgers university.
Fun Fact: rutgers was originally a member of the Ivy League when it was Queens College.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
he average professor makes anywhere between 60-85 grand a year, which isn't bad... but the university president makes 650,000 a year. for what?
It is harder to dig a hole with a shovel and a wheel barrow then with a front end loader and yet the operator of the front end loader makes more than the day laborer - a college president is a very difficlt and extrememly political position that requires many many many hats - much like the professional sports coaches who make 10x what the Rutgers president makes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
college is the next .com bubble. everyone is throwing all this money at it, all these kids are buying into it, but no one, except the people at the top, is getting anything from it.
If I say it, it is as true...
I agree there is a bubble coming but that is because of govt subsidized loans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
and i've said it once, and i'll say it a million times - we've upset a very sensitive ecosystem in this country. we've taken a very sensitive balance between blue collar and white collar people, and we've tried to mix it all together. in my area, our vocational schools don't have the enrollment to fill their two brand new tig welding classes. the few enrolled students they DO have aren't looking to pick up a trade, but are rather looking for college preparatory classes to help them make it through school.
our blue collar industries are starving (I, myself, have been witness to it), while our white collar industries are being flooded. a simple (and probably inaccurate, but you get the point) example is that in 1950, there were 5000 teaching jobs, and 4600 people trying to become teachers. in 2012, there are 3000 teaching jobs, and 30,000 people trying to become teachers.
if anyone thinks kids are going to college to learn anything, they're a jaded old fool. they all want the same thing at the end of four years - that little piece of paper that says "i did this, and now you can hire me, because i'm 'qualified.'"
Yeah, if those poor people just knew their place and didn't try to better themselves, the world of course would be a better place...
I currently only have a high school education (only short schools and OJT in the military). I've built many many planes. 13 years, no smokin holes in the ground yet. As a matter of fact, I can count on one hand how many people at my place of work that have a degree of any kind. I'm just now getting around to college because I've pretty much dead ended (hate the feeling of being stagnant). I'm trying to stay around my field because I like it and it's what I know.
ok let me rephase, would you fly in a plane designed by people who had no college education?
Yeah, if those poor people just knew their place and didn't try to better themselves, the world of course would be a better place...
Shit... You got to him right when I was going to.
who the fuck told either of you two that you LEARN things in college?
Are you under the impression that me and my close and personal friend, MadRiver, are sitting here pushing college on people because we've never been? The above sentence being the enlightenment we desire from the 22 year old with a pretty huge chip on his shoulder?
Sorry buddy. But higher education is requisite for a lot of careers. But it doesn't guarantee you a career. Kind of like how you need a dick to have sex, but just because you have a dick, it doesn't mean you're actually having sex. Nah mean?
How do you graduate with " highest honors with an almost perfect GPA."
And you learned nothing? Literally, or are you just being a smart ass to validate your self serving point of view? Maybe you got a liberal arts degree?
You quote Zappa to further your point on how education is useless? Please tell me what your degree is in... Now I need to know.
I'm gonna sound like your grandpa or crazy ass uncle on this one, but if you aren't sure what you want to do right out of high school, join the military.
I was a good student in high school, got good grades and all that bull shit. Of course, that means I went to college the next fall. I partied my way out of my scholarships in about 9 months because I didn't give a fuck about school and had to take my ass back to Mommy's house and get a construction job. That shit was lame.
I'm from a small beach town, so I saw the Coast Guard around a lot, and it seemed like those dudes had it pretty good. I went to the recruiter, and a few months later I was on my way to Cape May, NJ and a spiffy blue uniform. Now, about 6 pretty rad years later, I'm ready to get out and go back to school. For free. Plus a fat allowance. On top of that, I've had to handle real responsibility, deal with some kinda fucked up situations, and I've learned what type of leadership styles I dig and the ones that are lame. Life experience, homie.
Seriously, check out the benefits of the Post-9/11 GI Bill. It's nutty, and putting in the time to earn it will teach you a lot about yourself and how to deal with others.
I know a lot of people that didn't go to college that have good jobs making good money but I also know a lot of people who didn't go to college and their struggling to get by. No one in my family has been to college except for my sister so their all telling me I should go, I'm definitely going to get at least an associates degree in mechanical engineering. A few of my friends are going into the Marines / Coast Guard / Navy and I thought about inlisting for a while but I don't know yet. I talked to a local hot rod shop and they said I could probably get a job there doing fab work on cars next fall while I'm going to school if I don't keep the carpentry job.
I know a lot of people that didn't go to college that have good jobs making good money but I also know a lot of people who didn't go to college and their struggling to get by. No one in my family has been to college except for my sister so their all telling me I should go, I'm definitely going to get at least an associates degree in mechanical engineering. A few of my friends are going into the Marines / Coast Guard / Navy and I thought about inlisting for a while but I don't know yet. I talked to a local hot rod shop and they said I could probably get a job there doing fab work on cars next fall while I'm going to school if I don't keep the carpentry job.
Dude, take this from somone going down the ME route, if youre gonna do it, do a BS in mechanical engineering. Every single instructor i know at my school says its not worth much, and my classes are filled with guys who are back in school trying to get their bachelors in it, they all tell me the associates didnt do much for them at all, other than suck down some time and money.
and just an FYI, if you do mechanical engineering, its a different college experience. the first two years suck balls, lots of hard weed out classes, so the whole party your nuts off thing doesnt work out haha. But i say do it man, its really fun.
interesting. So if one doesnt learn anything in college, would you fly in a plane that was built by people who didnt have any education further than highschool?
yes, because people didn't go to college to build airplanes.
Yep.
Dropped out of my mom's love garden speaking greek, latin, old english, norse, and reading sanskrit...
Then regardless the grades, you didn't stretch yourself. Maybe if you weren't lazy and self righteous, you might have figured that out
So you can read Homer and Herodotus in their native tongues? Zappa was right, books are human psychology placed on the page. Without the classwork needed to learn German, Italian, Greek, Latin and French, I wouldn't have been able to read Wittgenstein, Virgil, or Voltaire - I would have just had to take some translator's word for what they said. Again, you're defending your own laziness by using other's words to justify it.
Fun Fact: rutgers was originally a member of the Ivy League when it was Queens College.
It is harder to dig a hole with a shovel and a wheel barrow then with a front end loader and yet the operator of the front end loader makes more than the day laborer - a college president is a very difficlt and extrememly political position that requires many many many hats - much like the professional sports coaches who make 10x what the Rutgers president makes...
If I say it, it is as true...
I agree there is a bubble coming but that is because of govt subsidized loans...
Yeah, if those poor people just knew their place and didn't try to better themselves, the world of course would be a better place...
1. So you can speak greek, sanscrit, latin, norse, old english, and norse.. and how, exactly, has that all helped you in REAL LIFE. oh, it hasn't. right.
2. Didn't stretch myself? I went to school full-time, got straight a's, and wrote for four different newspapers and magazines. Rather than look for some bullshit internship or beg a professor to "hook me up," I learned by doing - and still half-tracked the fuckin dorks in all my classes. Watch the shit you talk about people you don't know - there's nothing lazy about me, and i'm no slouch. And as for self righteous... Why? I'm self righteous because instead of sitting on the sidelines and shit talking something, I went out, did it (and damn well, at that), and decided it was complete and utter bull shit? I'd love to hear what you consider "stretching" oneself...
3. You think you're cool because you can throw around a name like Voltaire? Shut the fuck up. I read Candide when I was 11. I wrote a 20 page paper on "Philosophical Optimism," why Voltaire hated it so much, and how it related to Candide. But I can't speak a word of French. Welcome to the real world.
4. I'd be willing to bet you haven't a fucking clue about what it takes to be a college president as opposed to a college professor, or a competent educator. Why should a president make more than a professor? Because they do more work? Because they do BETTER work? Or because their suits are more expensive. Yeah, life is real fucking difficult when you have to go to California every few months to look for possible "fundraisers" for the school. I'm so tired of people who know absolutely nothing about the bull shit higher education system in this country talking about how important it is when they clearly know nothing about it or the politics involved in it.
5. Without those government subsidized loans, these "poor people" you so eloquently speak about wouldn't be able to go to school. Hell, I know I wouldn't have gone to school without my scholarships, financial aid, and student loans. Meanwhile, in other countries, college is free. In fact, I believe a friend of mine who lives in Turkey says the government pays HIM to go to college.
6. Clearly, you and I have different definitions of self-betterment. My father is a better man than me, and he only has a two-year degree. Before that, he was a blue-collar union worker, made a great salary, had awesome benefits, and shitty union reps (but a great contract and bylaws). I don't think a person needs a class room in order to be a better person. It's kind of funny how YOU'RE calling ME self righteous, when you hold such a shitty viewpoint of life outside of a college classroom.
1. So you can speak greek, sanscrit, latin, norse, old english, and norse.. and how, exactly, has that all helped you in REAL LIFE. oh, it hasn't. right.
2. Didn't stretch myself? I went to school full-time, got straight a's, and wrote for four different newspapers and magazines. Rather than look for some bullshit internship or beg a professor to "hook me up," I learned by doing - and still half-tracked the fuckin dorks in all my classes. Watch the shit you talk about people you don't know - there's nothing lazy about me, and i'm no slouch. And as for self righteous... Why? I'm self righteous because instead of sitting on the sidelines and shit talking something, I went out, did it (and damn well, at that), and decided it was complete and utter bull shit? I'd love to hear what you consider "stretching" oneself...
3. You think you're cool because you can throw around a name like Voltaire? Shut the fuck up. I read Candide when I was 11. I wrote a 20 page paper on "Philosophical Optimism," why Voltaire hated it so much, and how it related to Candide. But I can't speak a word of French. Welcome to the real world.
4. I'd be willing to bet you haven't a fucking clue about what it takes to be a college president as opposed to a college professor, or a competent educator. Why should a president make more than a professor? Because they do more work? Because they do BETTER work? Or because their suits are more expensive. Yeah, life is real fucking difficult when you have to go to California every few months to look for possible "fundraisers" for the school. I'm so tired of people who know absolutely nothing about the bull shit higher education system in this country talking about how important it is when they clearly know nothing about it or the politics involved in it.
5. Without those government subsidized loans, these "poor people" you so eloquently speak about wouldn't be able to go to school. Hell, I know I wouldn't have gone to school without my scholarships, financial aid, and student loans. Meanwhile, in other countries, college is free. In fact, I believe a friend of mine who lives in Turkey says the government pays HIM to go to college.
6. Clearly, you and I have different definitions of self-betterment. My father is a better man than me, and he only has a two-year degree. Before that, he was a blue-collar union worker, made a great salary, had awesome benefits, and shitty union reps (but a great contract and bylaws). I don't think a person needs a class room in order to be a better person. It's kind of funny how YOU'RE calling ME self righteous, when you hold such a shitty viewpoint of life outside of a college classroom.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM sucka! That's a checkmate on my book Rub. +1 man
I know a lot of people that didn't go to college that have good jobs making good money but I also know a lot of people who didn't go to college and their struggling to get by. No one in my family has been to college except for my sister so their all telling me I should go, I'm definitely going to get at least an associates degree in mechanical engineering. A few of my friends are going into the Marines / Coast Guard / Navy and I thought about inlisting for a while but I don't know yet. I talked to a local hot rod shop and they said I could probably get a job there doing fab work on cars next fall while I'm going to school if I don't keep the carpentry job.
honestly dude, mechanical engineering is one of those "all or nothing" fields. an associates degree in this field really won't do you much good. you're going to need at least a BS to really do anything. it's a shame, but that's how it is right now. in fact, a lot of my friends who went the ME route are actually getting their masters degrees right now because they *gasp* couldn't find work upon graduation.
1. So you can speak greek, sanscrit, latin, norse, old english, and norse.. and how, exactly, has that all helped you in REAL LIFE. oh, it hasn't. right.
I do. That's why I used them as examples. (Sorry I left you off, German) Hard to write a comparative thesis on Nagarjuna, Heraclitus and Wittgenstein without knowing them. How has it helped me in real life? More than you can imagine. I count Nobel and Pulitzer prize winners among my friends. Without the OE and Norse - and other than finally realizing "who" was spelled wrong (sound it out phonetically - yep - hwa is how you spell it - ealle hie death fonum, lif et laoned) - I might not have had the chance to spend time with true heros of mine - people who had profound impacts upon my life before I met them. Without that education, I would never have had those opportunities . Education and erudition - creative inquisitie thinking - have given me everything I have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
2. Didn't stretch myself? I went to school full-time, got straight a's, and wrote for four different newspapers and magazines. Rather than look for some bullshit internship or beg a professor to "hook me up," I learned by doing - and still half-tracked the fuckin dorks in all my classes. Watch the shit you talk about people you don't know - there's nothing lazy about me, and i'm no slouch. And as for self righteous... Why? I'm self righteous because instead of sitting on the sidelines and shit talking something, I went out, did it (and damn well, at that), and decided it was complete and utter bull shit? I'd love to hear what you consider "stretching" oneself...
First, I will say what I say when I say it however I chose to say to whom I care to and will not be threatened for having done so. You get straight A's and not learn anything, there is probably something wrong with you and not those attempting to educate you. I am glad you were productive in your output. College is a great place to do that, especially as an undergrad. Stretching yourself is realizing that if you're not learning something, you're not asking the right questions in the right places - you're not reading enough, you're not traveling enough, you're not working in fields different than those you know well. You are, in essence, being intellectually lazy, regardless of your output.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
3. You think you're cool because you can throw around a name like Voltaire? Shut the fuck up. I read Candide when I was 11. I wrote a 20 page paper on "Philosophical Optimism," why Voltaire hated it so much, and how it related to Candide. But I can't speak a word of French. Welcome to the real world.
Translation is a subtle art. Voiltaire was my clever way of calling you a bit of a pucelle. Thanks for the "Welcome." It's customary for that "Welcome" to come before the "Watch the shit you talk about people you don't know."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
4. I'd be willing to bet you haven't a fucking clue about what it takes to be a college president as opposed to a college professor, or a competent educator. Why should a president make more than a professor? Because they do more work? Because they do BETTER work? Or because their suits are more expensive. Yeah, life is real fucking difficult when you have to go to California every few months to look for possible "fundraisers" for the school. I'm so tired of people who know absolutely nothing about the bull shit higher education system in this country talking about how important it is when they clearly know nothing about it or the politics involved in it.
Whatever it is you're betting, I win. I like to keep my private life off the internet, but next time you're at the Harvard, let me know and I can introduce you to a few of my friends who might be able to do a better job expanding on the differences between a professor and a president and a dean than I am willing to here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
5. Without those government subsidized loans, these "poor people" you so eloquently speak about wouldn't be able to go to school. Hell, I know I wouldn't have gone to school without my scholarships, financial aid, and student loans. Meanwhile, in other countries, college is free. In fact, I believe a friend of mine who lives in Turkey says the government pays HIM to go to college.
It's a simple graph. Go look it up yourself. Artificially low interest rates led to an explosion in tuition costs at all higher educational institutions. access to credit and subsidized credit are different things. We're not looking to overstretch you though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
6. Clearly, you and I have different definitions of self-betterment. My father is a better man than me, and he only has a two-year degree. Before that, he was a blue-collar union worker, made a great salary, had awesome benefits, and shitty union reps (but a great contract and bylaws). I don't think a person needs a class room in order to be a better person. It's kind of funny how YOU'RE calling ME self righteous, when you hold such a shitty viewpoint of life outside of a college classroom.
I don't have a shitty point of view on what is learned outside the classroom. Hell, I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't let the classroom get in the way of your education. But you weren't arguing the positive attributes of working with your hands - the soulful nature of craftsmanship as it were - you were disparaging higher education. But if you need to feel like you were defending your dad instead of disparaging the sheeple, then that's fine. As long as it makes you feel better.
Last edited by MadRiverMoCo; 05-11-2012 at 5:40 PM.
I do. That's why I used them as examples. (Sorry I left you off, German) Hard to write a comparative thesis on Nagarjuna, Heraclitus and Wittgenstein without knowing them. How has it helped me in real life? More than you can imagine. I count Nobel and Pulitzer prize winners among my friends. Without the OE and Norse - and other than finally realizing "who" was spelled wrong (sound it out phonetically - yep - hwa is how you spell it - ealle hie death fonum, lif et laoned) - I might not have had the chance to spend time with true heros of mine - people who had profound impacts upon my life before I met them. Without that education, I would never have had those opportunities . Education and erudition - creative inquisitie thinking - have given me everything I have.
First, I will say what I say when I say it however I chose to say to whom I care to and will not be threatened for having done so. You get straight A's and not learn anything, there is probably something wrong with you and not those attempting to educate you. I am glad you were productive in your output. College is a great place to do that, especially as an undergrad. Stretching yourself is realizing that if you're not learning something, you're not asking the right questions in the right places - you're not reading enough, you're not traveling enough, you're not working in fields different than those you know well. You are, in essence, being intellectually lazy, regardless of your output.
Translation is a subtle art. Voiltaire was my clever way of calling you a bit of a pucelle. Thanks for the "Welcome." It's customary for that "Welcome" to come before the "Watch the shit you talk about people you don't know."
Whatever it is you're betting, I win. I like to keep my private life off the internet, but next time you're at the Harvard, let me know and I can introduce you to a few of my friends who might be able to do a better job expanding on the differences between a professor and a president and a dean than I am willing to here.
It's a simple graph. Go look it up yourself. Artificially low interest rates led to an explosion in tuition costs at all higher educational institutions. access to credit and subsidized credit are different things. We're not looking to overstretch you though...
I don't have a shitty point of view on what is learned outside the classroom. Hell, I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't let the classroom get in the way of your education. But you weren't arguing the positive attributes of working with your hands - the soulful nature of craftsmanship as it were - you were disparaging higher education. But if you need to feel like you were defending your dad instead of disparaging the sheeple, then that's fine. As long as it makes you feel better.
Oh, you went to Harvard? That pretty much explains everything. Yes, you're right - one can't learn a language unless they're being taught it by a professor. One can't ask questions unless they're done in classrooms by professors who know everything about anything. And yes, I didn't apply myself in college because I didn't ask those above me the appropriate quesitons. And yes, because I couldn't afford to see the world at the age of 22, I am a lesser learned man because of it.
Well, this conversation has been enlightening. Thanks.
Oh, you went to Harvard? That pretty much explains everything.
Actually, it only raises more questions (and I didn't say I went there) but thank you for feeling you can righteously dismiss my arguments without actually engaging them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
Yes, you're right - one can't learn a language unless they're being taught it by a professor.
You are aware of what a strawman is. I learned french in Paris where I lived on $10 a week for almost two yrs - in the US we call that homeless and starving - not a classroom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
One can't ask questions unless they're done in classrooms by professors who know everything about anything.
You didn't appear to ask any questions anywhere. You appeared to know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubman
And yes, I didn't apply myself in college because I didn't ask those above me the appropriate quesitons. And yes, because I couldn't afford to see the world at the age of 22, I am a lesser learned man because of it.
This old bastard has this to say ,,,,,,,,,,get your shit together ,,dont piss a way your days,,party when you have the things in life you want ,,,partying wont get them for you,,,, spoken from a guy who has partied away 30 plus years,,,goes faster than you think it will ,, wtg on graduation,,,rock on guy
I graduated high school back in 19 and 70. Then I went to college - for two semesters. Colleges are nothing more than brain sucking machines. The most valuable lesson I learned in college was learned upstairs in the game room. It taught me that if I excelled, I could make more money on the billiards table then I could with a college degree!
If you plan to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or professor then you need to get a degree. If not, then you need to get off your ass and get a J-O-B !!! It's workers that make a nation great. Workers and doers. Things get accomplished by those go out and get them done, not by those sit around and pontificate about how they should be done. Choose a path and keep your eyes on the goal not the obstacles. Always remember where you were headed and never forget where you came from.
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