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spooner
10-22-2010, 9:19 AM
Thought I would pick your guys brains. A few months ago I bought an '80 wide glide that the p/o had bored and stroked to 93 cu. in. It had been sitting for over a year in storage. I finally got it to run a few weeks ago. S&S super E carb. When it is dead cold, I can usually start it with 2 kicks, enrichener on, absolutely no primer kicks or throttle. (It seems like it floods very easily.) When it is hot, it will usually start 1 or 2 kicks, no enrichener, no throttle.
When the rocker covers are warm, like it has been sitting for an hour or 2 after running, it may take 12 or more kicks to start it. I have not found the formula for getting it to fire off quick. I weigh about 180 and it is a beast to kick over.
Not sure if it is related, but the intermediate circuit is running lean, I have to ride with the enrichener about 1/4 of the way up to keep it from backfiring through the carb. The bike idles great and runs good of off the main jet, but I have not gone to a bigger intermediate jet yet.
Any suggestions are appreciated.

ARBY
10-22-2010, 12:44 PM
My '77 starts with one kick hot, about 4 when warm but cold, damn she's a cold blooded bitch. Takes at least 15-20 kicks before it'll even pop!

Reference the jet, what's in it now? Maybe you have a little piece of crud up in there.

greazy
10-22-2010, 1:04 PM
need 2 double check your timing but its prob either trash in your idle circuit or u need a larger inter jet. the s&s web site has some good tech tips 4 carb tuning.

spooner
10-22-2010, 1:36 PM
I have not dropped the bowl yet to see what size the intermediate jet is. I am thinking that when the po had the motor rebuilt, he increased the displacement, but did not increase the jets sizes.

hbsteve
10-22-2010, 2:20 PM
back firing trough the carb could also mean yoy have an intake leak, especially if you have to run with the enrichener 1/4 up. could be do to the stroke, the cylinders are taller spacing the intake ports a little further apart, there are adapters that are for making up that difference so you get a better intake to head fit.

spooner
10-22-2010, 2:44 PM
back firing trough the carb could also mean yoy have an intake leak, especially if you have to run with the enrichener 1/4 up. could be do to the stroke, the cylinders are taller spacing the intake ports a little further apart, there are adapters that are for making up that difference so you get a better intake to head fit.

That makes sense, it did have an intake leak, which I fixed with regular seals. I'll test it when it is idleing to see if it speeds up when I spray carb cleaner around it. When I am riding, it only backfires at low rpm, the idle is fine and medium to high throttle is fine.
I'll see if I cand find those adaptors. Thanks for the responses.

SportsterBob
10-23-2010, 12:59 AM
have you thought about the highter comression of a warmer engine. With more compression the engine woun't turn that much around with one kick as it will when its cold.
I do have the same issue with my 97cui Shovel. Thats why my heads gettin decompression valves at the moment.

but I don't want to say that this is the only problem, maybe the others are right too.

xllance
10-23-2010, 10:09 AM
My ironhead is the same way. Starts easy when stone cold or hot but lukewarm.........not so much and if you happen to miss the one time it wants to fire....good luck!

DonQuijote
10-23-2010, 10:21 AM
Problems can occur if there's no insulator block between the carb body and the manifold. Heat transferred from the manifold to the Shorty carburetor body can cause a temporary rich condition at idle and low rpms when bike is hot or warm. That also results a hard starting.

Easy and cheap solution is to install a proper insulator block from S&S:

http://www.sscycle.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=20051

spooner
10-23-2010, 11:44 AM
Problems can occur if there's no insulator block between the carb body and the manifold. Heat transferred from the manifold to the Shorty carburetor body can cause a temporary rich condition at idle and low rpms when bike is hot or warm. That also results a hard starting.

Easy and cheap solution is to install a proper insulator block from S&S:

http://www.sscycle.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=20051

Think that I will order one of those, looks like it can't hurt but could help.
Thanks for the replies.

LAMF
10-24-2010, 11:48 PM
My ironhead is the same way. Starts easy when stone cold or hot but lukewarm.........not so much and if you happen to miss the one time it wants to fire....good luck!

sums it up for mine too

cntrhub
10-25-2010, 7:27 AM
Shorty carburetor body can cause a temporary rich condition at idle and low rpms when bike is hot or warm. That also results a hard starting.

If anyone is interested in the LOOP... Your abstract, Don, says:
Hot engine = 'causes a temporary rich condition"

Here is where I have to correct the poster's info. Get everyone upset at me, I have to correct the abstract in the practical event to the concept of, heat vs. cool air = Basic physics. Even though Don may have or may have not narrowed the starting problem issue, what about the hard starters with carb heat blocks already installed? Don't they take 20 kicks on the warm side, 1 or 2 on the cold side and she fires up?

Heat expands. That means air molecules are farther apart. That means a hot engine is lean, and now with that simple physics in hand, the short bus passenger looking out the window is pointing at the special oh wimp picks one out of the short straws picked from your trouble-tree signals.

See the kind of trouble I get into when I have to correct the science and the LOOP pity duped you once again I have 42 trophies worth of nature's fill is hot/cold-3V's are fuel/sp/comp. 3wV
are 3 wire variables. Wire means spark.

My bike is hard starting: Do I have equal compression?
My bike starts hard hot: Do I have the proper valve set, timing set? Is it the ignition?
My bike starts easy cold: Do I have a compression problem? No, it starts. Do I have an ignition problem? No, it starts and idles too easy says you. Do I have a fuel problem? Well, Don points the way to fuel. But he threw you under the bus with his physics in the opposite direction.

If I think Hot = Rich; then Don, would that mean jet down? You would assume you would jet down if Don says, "rich hot."
Donny, do you see the tuning step has you LOOP'down in the jetting? You missed the physics where heat expands and now you need to compensate for heat expansion and lean fuel droplets at a hot environment about to spit the same fuel but the air is not so close and accommodating.

Do we have a fuel related problem, yes or no? Do we have a compression problem? Well yes and no, but I would count out 'not at this point it starts' and runs hot and cold so no tight valve hot or cold condition to stop the bike from starting at all.

Do we have an ignition problem? No. It starts too easy. You do not complain about hot running as if it is in a retard condition which will overheat. It idles. It starts easy cold.

Do we have a slight fuel problem? It sure steps to a loop of something fuel related, yes or no? Now you have to ask yourself if Don is correct in the heat vs. nature's molecule reaction to expansion or listen to the short bus passenger with the physics; warns you of a little bit of dangerous information; you lean the bike out all hot and cook a piston as per Don's theory in the loop of the step.

Are we on the same page I have to explain myself in detail we diagnose some heavy shit here? Then all of a sudden it is not that difficult to diagnose you know a little bit about cold and hot moving molecules? :cool:


:asshat: <<< I do not stand in front of this fish market with the cheeze paper way up there in the plumber cleavage for your answers. No offense, Don. I use examples as to how you approach a drive-ability condition.

spooner
10-25-2010, 8:18 AM
Checked my carb again, I do have an insulator block, but also a slight intake leak. It had a major intake leak when I bought it, but I thought that I had it fixed. I have ordered new seals and will see if that helps.
Thanks again.

DonQuijote
10-25-2010, 2:33 PM
If anyone is interested in the LOOP... Your abstract, Don, says:
Hot engine = 'causes a temporary rich condition"

Here is where I have to correct the poster's info. Get everyone upset at me, I have to correct the abstract in the practical event to the concept of, heat vs. cool air = Basic physics.

etc.

Wow! I didn't understand very much about your writings, but no need start a war here...

Just said "can cause..." and I know, from my own experience, that this little insulator block can help in some cases, not all. Anyway, it does no harm in any case and is cheap and easy to install and see, if or not it helps.

By all means, do your math and science, I'll stick with the basics and just ride. My shovel starts with one or two kicks, every time, hot or cold, so I must be doing something right. Right?

Cheers and good luck to spooner locating the real problem :cheersmate:

xllance
10-25-2010, 5:25 PM
If anyone is interested in the LOOP... Your abstract, Don, says:
Hot engine = 'causes a temporary rich condition"

Here is where I have to correct the poster's info. Get everyone upset at me, I have to correct the abstract in the practical event to the concept of, heat vs. cool air = Basic physics. Even though Don may have or may have not narrowed the starting problem issue, what about the hard starters with carb heat blocks already installed? Don't they take 20 kicks on the warm side, 1 or 2 on the cold side and she fires up?

Heat expands. That means air molecules are farther apart. That means a hot engine is lean, and now with that simple physics in hand, the short bus passenger looking out the window is pointing at the special oh wimp picks one out of the short straws picked from your trouble-tree signals.

See the kind of trouble I get into when I have to correct the science and the LOOP pity duped you once again I have 42 trophies worth of nature's fill is hot/cold-3V's are fuel/sp/comp. 3wV
are 3 wire variables. Wire means spark.

My bike is hard starting: Do I have equal compression?
My bike starts hard hot: Do I have the proper valve set, timing set? Is it the ignition?
My bike starts easy cold: Do I have a compression problem? No, it starts. Do I have an ignition problem? No, it starts and idles too easy says you. Do I have a fuel problem? Well, Don points the way to fuel. But he threw you under the bus with his physics in the opposite direction.

If I think Hot = Rich; then Don, would that mean jet down? You would assume you would jet down if Don says, "rich hot."
Donny, do you see the tuning step has you LOOP'down in the jetting? You missed the physics where heat expands and now you need to compensate for heat expansion and lean fuel droplets at a hot environment about to spit the same fuel but the air is not so close and accommodating.

Do we have a fuel related problem, yes or no? Do we have a compression problem? Well yes and no, but I would count out 'not at this point it starts' and runs hot and cold so no tight valve hot or cold condition to stop the bike from starting at all.

Do we have an ignition problem? No. It starts too easy. You do not complain about hot running as if it is in a retard condition which will overheat. It idles. It starts easy cold.

Do we have a slight fuel problem? It sure steps to a loop of something fuel related, yes or no? Now you have to ask yourself if Don is correct in the heat vs. nature's molecule reaction to expansion or listen to the short bus passenger with the physics; warns you of a little bit of dangerous information; you lean the bike out all hot and cook a piston as per Don's theory in the loop of the step.

Are we on the same page I have to explain myself in detail we diagnose some heavy shit here? Then all of a sudden it is not that difficult to diagnose you know a little bit about cold and hot moving molecules? :cool:


:asshat: <<< I do not stand in front of this fish market with the cheeze paper way up there in the plumber cleavage for your answers. No offense, Don. I use examples as to how you approach a drive-ability condition.

I have a headache now, thanks.............

cntrhub
10-26-2010, 9:49 AM
I didn't understand very much about your writings, but no need start a war here... This is not a war. This is science applied to tuning the bike. They are basic steps. I am just saying, "Could do something like a guy would think to lean out the bike even more and seize his piston; we follow the lead of the heat/cold abstract." <<< Is point. I make the counter-point.

I'm just saying, that tiny bit of physics insight can make or break the tuneup. And if you did not see it, then you are like me being lucky following something like; were you lucky the compression is low, the timing is retarded, the carb is set right for said tune. Can I obtain more HP out of your engine? I think I can... Maybe. But I will leave that trick for another time. Especially the shovel kick is now match yours?

See, I have no clue of your tune and where it sits with your setup. What 10% of compression is out of sync with the potato-potato idle I am trying to tune. I am looking for a 1/4 kick kind of tune, not some full stroke down. That is my tuning aim.

Say I am clueless but have some idea where to move on the tune; "you say potato, I say poop-potato-poop. WOT (wide open throttle) test ride and now she is super lean I had to go down two steps not one in the jetting.... Oh well! BOOM!!!



My shovel starts with one or two kicks, every time, hot or cold, so I must be doing something right. Right?
Technically, no. I am not putting you down no way. So, technically, yes, you may have followed procedure, but there is more to the tune than just setting specs to book. Point gap and valves set and all that kind of spec is within or out of spec, I have no clue. So, yes, you nailed the tuneup if that baby is a one kick wonder.

I figure this; there is a place to fool around here, but in the tech section. I am banned from 42 websites because they mess with the physics as we are here in the headache of the hot/cold variables. This is very complex, very easy to understand how/why/where things go wrong and now they are up and running again = Know Your Fundamental events or it is more a learning curve than a war.

The learning curve is the LAP. And if you get it right, are faster on the draw than me catching you with your tuneDOWN..... That sort of makes the difference between a jj and CC kind of website(s); if you want to take on websites, I have 42 ready to be spanked one more time they get the physics wrong; or make post [correct the physicks] before I do. You know something is UP we are sitting here reading this. Someone's abstract did not follow the 4-Strokes. Someone's concept did not follow basic physics. Someone is going to tune in the opposite direction and cause a piston skirt to tick-tick now. Not potato-potato at idle.

Dis is the underground and INN my neck of the woods, (((Cock Chopping))) is what will happen to you between the war with air expanding and contracting; better take a deep breath... And hold on.

You won't see me intentionally hurt any member's engine no matter what he/she thinks of me. If I said nothing and knew the difference... Get it?

I hope you are :cool: with that. I am not here to start wars. Call me the defender of the physics :killerjob: YOu cannot create or destroy matter. Physics matters in tech-sections or you are lost. It is a long process to digest this air to fuel ratio. I am no tuner. I leave that to those that can. I can tuneup something. A parts changer, yeast eye yam.