PDA

View Full Version : BSA 441 Victor Redesign



TriEye8
09-27-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm a student studying industrial design and for a semester long project I am redesigning a 1970 BSA 441 victor . The original bike was of a dirt bike style and based off of a motorcycle that won 2 Grand Prix world championships back in the sixties. This term "based" is a very loose one though, seeing as how the race bike's frame was built with the best steel and a "one off" type of build attitude coupled with racing components that were, well, components engineered specifically for racing, with Jeff Smith on the seat. What remains the same from the lightweight, world championship winning bike to the low cost, mass produced, grossly heavy consumer bike is the shapes of the gas tank, seat and frame, plus the use of the torquey, 440 cc single banger, the heart and soul.

Attached are my scope and objectives for the project.

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 12:44 PM
I went down to a motorcycle salvage yard, Steele's Motorcycle Salvage, which is south of Denver about two weeks ago. I was in search of a more modern front end that would fit the application of around a 310 pound street bike. The yard was full of mostly totaled GSXRs and R1s with the companionship of 70's and 80's Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasakis and Suzukis. I only saw one Harley Davidson in about 4 acres of bikes and not a single Italian motorcycle.

The front end that I thought best fits this project is a Kawasaki Ninja 250e, seeing as how these weigh in around 330 give or take and have a rake that I am looking for, 23 to 25 degrees with around a 3 to 3.5 inch trail.

Enter the 1998 Ninja 250e parts bike...

I wanted to put a disc brake on the front for better stopping power so I salvaged the neck from the bike (which had no title), the triple tree, forks, caliper, front brake handle with reservoir, and front disk, from the 98'. I then grabbed and front wheel from an 06' Ninja with a RoadRider Avon tire.

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 12:54 PM
I stripped the bike from a running object to its individual parts in a day. In my opinion you can't beat the simplicity of the older technologies.

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 1:04 PM
sketching helps understanding

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 1:10 PM
more...

That last one is for when that imminent nuclear winter comes

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 1:19 PM
S k e t c h

snotrocket
09-27-2010, 3:04 PM
Looking very cool.
Keep us updated with some process shots.
Will you be running the front wheel from the Ninja?
What have you thought about for storage?

personally i like the Tank Bike.


i made a profile just for you buddy ;)

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 5:51 PM
Once I got the frame stripped and decided on what degree I wanted the rake to be, I cut the neck off replaced it with the 98' ninja neck. I also replaced the original gussets with a single one that has a space cut for the coil. The original gussets were kind of a weak design because they did not allow for a complete covering of paint behind them. When I pulled them off, the tubes and neck had a tinge of metal cancer.

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 6:12 PM
Here is a snap of the intended geometry of the frame with the new front end installed. I also trimmed many of the tabs off to clean up the looks, save every once of weight and make way for different components.

On friday I went to Alreco aluminum supply in Henderson, Co. and it is truly a treasure trove of stock aluminum. Extruded pieces in all shapes, sizes, and lengths; stock cylinders one foot in diameter and ten feet long; sheets, tubes, anything. I stuck to the scrap areas, which were still loaded with great material. The aluminum is for the swing arm which will be about 4 inches longer than the stock to compensate for the decrease is rake.

The material is 6061, and I am definitely at the bottom of the learning curve for Tig welding aluminum, seeing as how this small object took the better part of sunday, but you've got to start somewhere, right?!

This week will be completion of the front half of the swing arm with the mono shock mount.

svguy
09-27-2010, 7:32 PM
Looks awesome! im so jealous man, i want to build a bike too!

Bret
09-27-2010, 7:35 PM
TriEye8 I went to ArtCenter and I was always jealous of the ID and Transportation design majors. Keep up the great work!

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 8:18 PM
Thanks Bret, I hear that Art Center is quite the place, What did you go for? One of my drawing teachers went there for transportation design and the work he lays down on paper is other worldly.

SVguy, thanks man, when I get it done I am bringing it out, assuming all goes to plan!

Snotrocket... that name is killing me

AmericanACP
09-27-2010, 8:19 PM
Mr. Myslickian. That look outrageous brother! Im super impressed! Those welds are looking great and The fork looks sinister man! Great work! Im super jealous

TriEye8
09-27-2010, 9:38 PM
parts

Bret
09-28-2010, 12:34 AM
Thanks Bret, I hear that Art Center is quite the place, What did you go for? One of my drawing teachers went there for transportation design and the work he lays down on paper is other worldly.

I majored in Graphic Design and Packaging. I dated a girl who was an ID major and your right. The way they can put that stuff on paper is AMAZING. A lot of drawing "from the shoulder" and broad strokes that transform into works of art. What's your instructor's name?

Blackjack
09-28-2010, 3:29 AM
Once I got the frame stripped and decided on what degree I wanted the rake to be, I cut the neck off replaced it with the 98' ninja neck. I also replaced the original gussets with a single one that has a space cut for the coil. The original gussets were kind of a weak design because they did not allow for a complete covering of paint behind them. When I pulled them off, the tubes and neck had a tinge of metal cancer.

The original gussets were aligned with the neutral axis and making the headstock stronger.

Yours is just creating two localised stress points.

TriEye8
09-28-2010, 10:51 AM
The original gussets were aligned with the neutral axis and making the headstock stronger.

Yours is just creating two localised stress points.

After reading a bit I think I see what you mean. The Neutral Axis of both tubes is perpendicular to the load direction, where as I put the gussets directly on the top and the bottom. The original "cheek plates" where welded directly onto the neutral axis of both tubes and the neck (steering head). Well, this seems like something that is going to have to change.

Thanks for the insight Blackjack

TriEye8
09-28-2010, 10:56 AM
I majored in Graphic Design and Packaging. I dated a girl who was an ID major and your right. The way they can put that stuff on paper is AMAZING. A lot of drawing "from the shoulder" and broad strokes that transform into works of art. What's your instructor's name?



His name is Amar Dhadwal. Heres a link to his portfolio.

http://www.coroflot.com/public/individual_details.asp?job_seeker_id=144973&t=&keywords=Amar&&page_no=&c=1

Blackjack
09-28-2010, 5:03 PM
After reading a bit I think I see what you mean. The Neutral Axis of both tubes is perpendicular to the load direction, where as I put the gussets directly on the top and the bottom. The original "cheek plates" where welded directly onto the neutral axis of both tubes and the neck (steering head). Well, this seems like something that is going to have to change.

Thanks for the insight Blackjack

You've got it.

A while back, I mocked up some thin wall tube to represent a scale model of a single top tube/single down tube frame and did three versions, no gusset, single gusset like yours, and double gusset.

Then I got Damien to rip them apart as part of a tech talk I was giving.

They all failed, but the shade of red that Damien went and the way the tube failed was pretty informative.

If you're at college, you might want to try the experiment for your self.

Bret
09-30-2010, 11:52 PM
His name is Amar Dhadwal. Heres a link to his portfolio.

http://www.coroflot.com/public/individual_details.asp?job_seeker_id=144973&t=&keywords=Amar&&page_no=&c=1

I graduated in '92, waaaaaay before him but I definitely recognize the style.

snotrocket
10-06-2010, 3:55 PM
Lets see some progress!!!!

TriEye8
10-10-2010, 8:13 PM
Hey All, I haven't posted in about two weeks, but here is an update of where I am. I replaced the single gusset with the original 2 after it was pointed out to me that the current way is the most structurally sound (thanks blackjack). I tried to salvage the original "made in England" decal but the heat ate it up.

The swing arm is what has slowed the progress over the last 2 weeks for various reasons. I had the pivot and mono shock mount machined out by both Stacey at Wilton Manufacturing and Jason at Sunset Engineering. Thanks to the Wilton brothers and Noble Wildman for helping me out with this project, I really appreciate the help.

The swing arm frame that I had built tweaked as it cooled down from welding because of my lack of jigging. In attempts of trying to heat and bend it back to square, the welds cracked and instead of trying to fix the cracks, I learned from the first and built a second. Who wants that monkey on their back of riding a defective swing arm?!

TriEye8
10-10-2010, 8:39 PM
As I went back and rebuilt the swing arm, I decided to go with steel drop outs instead of straight aluminum. Steel is more durable and this current set up looks much cleaner. This is all 6061 aluminum and the first complete object I have built using the Tig process. The welds aren't the cleanest but I got good penetration with good squareness using "jigs" from welding all the way through cooling. I will find out for sure how strong it is once its in use!

I have been doing a little bit of research on heat treating aluminum to a T6 or T7 hardness. I have heard both on suggestions of how to do it and that I probably don't need to heat treat with 6061. I used 4041 filler rod and would like some suggestions if anybody has any information.

TriEye8
10-10-2010, 9:07 PM
Fabrication of swing arm is nearly complete, the only item that needs to be added is the bolt boss for the drum brake brace. After that is added, polishing will commence.

Once I fabricate the bracket for the rear shock on the frame and re assemble the forks with new seals and dust covers, the suspension will be complete.

TriEye8
10-18-2010, 10:05 AM
Rendering of swing arm built in Solid Works. If I were a robot, I could make make the actual one look this clean, but alas, I am stuck as a breathing, bleeding mortal. For Now.

CCW
10-19-2010, 8:52 PM
Looking good, definitely going to be watching this thread. It looks like you have good craftsmanship:)

I graduated from Transportation Design at the Cleveland Institute of Art a few years ago. Vehicle design is very fulfilling, and an amazing career choice. Keep your head up, work hard and shoot for the stars!!! www.ClevelandCycleWerks.com (http://www.clevelandcyclewerks.com/bikes/)

Keep up the nice work brotha.

TriEye8
10-21-2010, 9:06 AM
Thanks CCW, I appreciate it. What you have going is something to strive for! Great doings.

The Sketches are pretty killer, cool vision, and Im glad your making a path and name for your self.

I would be thankful of any feed back/criticism.

-Josh

sackman
10-21-2010, 11:10 AM
Since I love old BSA's, I'm very interested in what this bike will look like after your done hacking it up.

TriEye8
10-22-2010, 10:26 PM
me too sackman! Time will tell

TriEye8
10-31-2010, 10:40 PM
Hey all, I haven't posted much lately primarily because I have made near zero progress. The last 2 weeks I have been trudging through problems that arose through my lack of engineering knowledge. Just because it looks good doesn't mean it works the same!

What I thought I could do was build a swing arm, take a mono shock from an existing motorcycle, bolt it up and roll away. Not so. Everything on a motorcycle has an interrelationship with other parts and a small change in dimension or angle can make a part work great or it can create a huge problem.

The shock I wanted to use with the initial swing arm had a 500 lb per inch spring. Because it was from a 1000 CC bike, I assumed it would be more than sufficient. Once it was installed, I realized my dimensions were severely wrong. Its not good when a suspension bottoms out with about 70 pounds applied to it.

TriEye8
10-31-2010, 11:00 PM
To fix the problem, I got in contact with Pierre who is an engineer at Works Performance who specialize in suspensions of all types. He gave me some calculations to do to find out what was going on. I found out, that with the current swing arm I had built, I needed a shock with a 3000 lb per inch spring to get the ride I wanted.
These are not the kind of loads I want on the suspension, so Pierre helped me through redesigning the swing arm to get the loads down much lower. To do this the wheelbase had to be increased by 2.5 inches which I think will give the bike a more aggressive look and will make it less twitchy with a 23.5 degree rake. Pierre also designed a shock specifically for this bike so it gets the perfect feel. Although I wanted to keep this project close to the realm or recycling parts, and it nearly broke the bank, I am damn excited to get this shock installed in the next couple weeks.

TriEye8
10-31-2010, 11:10 PM
To save weight, add comfort and lower the profile of the seat, I fabricated a fiberglass seat pan.

TriEye8
10-31-2010, 11:57 PM
Its not a chopper but it is chopped

TriEye8
11-01-2010, 12:34 AM
Top end inspection/rebuild. Clutch adjustment, primary chain re tension. I still have to change the points. I also had to replace the piston rings because I had no clue how brittle they are, went to take them off to wire wheel the piston and before I knew it it was too late.

Thanks mostly to my Dad, a Haynes manual,and Chilton manual for torque numbers, this was a pretty quick process.

TriEye8
11-01-2010, 2:43 PM
Does anybody have any knowledge about eliminating the battery on a b44 motor? I want to run this bike without a battery to reduce weight and clutter.

AmericanACP
11-01-2010, 7:11 PM
Is the system 6 or 12 volt Josh? I know braille makes some gnarly light weight batteries for cars, maybe you could use one of them?

CCW
11-01-2010, 8:56 PM
You can use a capacitor, with a small 9V battery tucked up under the tank. This is the setup I use on my M21, it works well. I however converted my generator to 12 volt Negative Earth.

TriEye8
11-05-2010, 6:40 PM
Here is the comparison of the 1st generation swing arm to the 2nd. An evolution was in need because of a lack of crucial engineering. Luckily there are experts in these fields. The current design is on the bottom and is 2.75" longer.

TriEye8
11-16-2010, 10:52 PM
Today was a good day. I woke up to a package from works performance and finally got the rear shock installed. I couldn't have asked for anything more dialed in. Once it was installed, my project became a rolling chassis, what a good feeling.

In the pictures you can see the fenders have been mounted, the seat has been upholstered and mounted, the swing arm has been completed and the headlight is mounted.

TriEye8
11-16-2010, 11:03 PM
running vs rolling

milehigh
11-17-2010, 8:24 PM
running vs rolling

The stance on that thing is so mean looking. Cant wait to see it finished.:clap for you:

TriEye8
11-17-2010, 10:04 PM
thanks milehigh

TriEye8
11-17-2010, 10:18 PM
I found this tail light from a 59 cadillac at a swap meet a few weeks ago and thought it would look excellent as a motorcycle tail light. I tried to keep the basic feel of the retro rocket look with the bracket, basing it off of automotive designs of the 50's and sixties.

The material is a casting resin that is impervious to the elements and is very easily sanded, drilled and tapped.

TriEye8
11-18-2010, 12:24 AM
Is the system 6 or 12 volt Josh? I know braille makes some gnarly light weight batteries for cars, maybe you could use one of them?
hey Devin, The system is a 12 volt. Those Braille's seem like a good option, besides the price. I purchased a 12 volt, 4 amp hour battery where the one that was in it when I got it was a 7 amp hour. Not too sure how this will act and neither did the guy at the battery store (strange).

AmericanACP
11-24-2010, 7:49 PM
That tail light looks sick man! Defiantly your style! what grade resin did you use?

TriEye8
11-25-2010, 1:23 AM
Thanks, I am not sure what the grade of resin is but its Alumilite Super Plastic casting resin.

I am in the process of trying to decide what color to do the frame and if I should paint the front wheel or not. I did a few rough thumbnails to check out.

Any opinions are appreciated!

TriEye8
11-25-2010, 1:44 AM
Kind of new, somewhat recycled. For this pan, I designed it in Solid Works and converted it to sheet metal to get the template drawings. I cut all of the fittings and features off of the old tank and attached 'em to the new.

TriEye8
11-25-2010, 1:55 AM
finished product, just need to pressure test it, probably friday. The only thing Im making tomorrow is apple pie!!

Happy Thanksgiving

steffan
11-26-2010, 3:03 PM
i installed the Sparx battery eliminator, rectifier, regulator. works great. as far as frame color, i like the drark green, black, or gun metal.

lookin killer.

Blackjack
11-26-2010, 4:34 PM
Errr....

How much suspension travel you got?

And how big is that gap between the seat loop and the rear light?

TriEye8
11-29-2010, 10:52 PM
Thanks steffan, I am also digging the dark colors. Dark navy blue, dark green, maroon, Not sure yet but I am trying to get it out to paint by the end of this week or beginning of next.

To answer what you were getting at blackjack, no, there's not enough clearance between the rear loop and tail light. It was floating around the back of my head the entire time I was making it but I got caught up in the looks of it. oh well, it was a good shape study and fab practice. I also wasn't sure how much I liked the '59 cadillac light, I may try to find something that fits the aesthetics more closely. Good eye.

Since you've got a keen eye, what do you think about color? Should the front wheel be painted in your opinion? Different colors?

On a side note, I was pressure testing the oil tank tonight with a new regulator that jumped up in psi way quicker than what I had expected and the bottom got pushed out almost an inch. I almost lost it because I had read about this and I thought I was being proactive. I got it back into shape with a steel pipe, rolling the bulge out, and hammering with a rubber mallet. The tank doesn't look as straight as it did, but I definitely am learning the trade secrets.

TriEye8
12-13-2010, 12:08 PM
Ahhh! Not a murmur about paint color?! Does nobody have an opinion? I would have thought there were many out spoken people here. Well, seeing as how I am a horribly indecisive person, and how I only had my own thoughts and opinions (plus one or two others) to ponder(and drive me crazy), I nearly didn't paint the frame.

But seeing as how a friend was doing this FOC, I couldn't pass this opportunity up. I was liking the dark colors at first but i wanted to go past the reliability of a dark color. It seemed like I was taking the easy way out, but I also didn't want some flashy, metal flake, covered machine.

Thanks Jerry!!

The handle bar mounts are something that I attempted to build but I don't have the tools (bridgeport) to fabricate something like this in a timely fashion. I built a pair of really ghetto ones, took the dimensions, drew up some technical drawings and had the machined by a family friend. they work and look amazing, while using the original top clamp from the BSA.

Thanks Noble Wildman (yes, his last name is Wildman) If only his first name was Wolfegang.

TriEye8
01-08-2011, 11:43 AM
Hey all, Its been a bit since I updated this thread but here we go. I still have to clean up the wiring and button up the project here and there but this is how she stands as of yesterday. Let me know what you think of redesign thus far, Im interested to know.

Once I get everything fine tuned I will do a more thorough post on the final bike.

Josh

Speedfiend
01-09-2011, 3:31 PM
I really like what your trying to do. I'm a fan of this build not a hater. And I don't normally post crits. I really like this build cept for one thing. That front wheel is killing it. Maybe find a spoked wheel, a little larger, to match the radius of the fender better.

Otherwise, very cool.

Edit;
On second thought, find a way to use the ninja rear wheel to match the front. And re-radius the front fender. Prolly match the mono shock/ modern front end better anyway.

TriEye8
01-09-2011, 9:52 PM
Speedfiend, I hear what you're saying about the front end, there is definitely something distasteful going on up there. I personally don't mind the size difference in wheels but the front fender radius is awful to look at. It looks much better even without the fender, which may be an option.

Thanks

I was starting to think I was posting to dead air, its good to get feedback and hear others opinions. I dig your purple BSA, I appreciate how refined and well thought out it looks.http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/lamoreuxh/100_0627.jpg

billdozer
01-09-2011, 11:45 PM
I really like what your trying to do. I'm a fan of this build not a hater. And I don't normally post crits. I really like this build cept for one thing. That front wheel is killing it. Maybe find a spoked wheel, a little larger, to match the radius of the fender better.


I agree, the mag and off-radiused fenders are killing it. Lose the front one, mount the rear to the subframe. Ditch the eyebrow thingy. Some good looking tires would change a lot too.

Just my two cents. I applaud your enthusiasm.

TriEye8
03-26-2011, 3:26 PM
Heres my buddy JJ sitting on the bike. You can get a better idea of geometry in these photos. Im hoping to get some nice pictures taken in the next few days, so keep an eye out.

alexzen
03-27-2011, 12:30 PM
cool project. I got my ID degree at UIC.

TriEye8
07-06-2011, 7:57 PM
This bike has been a great bike to ride in the city cause Its agile, lightweight, torquey and pretty loud, its definitely turned a few heads and begged a few questions. I took it down to a british motorcycle meet a few weeks ago in Auburn, Ma. First off there were some amazing motorcycles there from tritons, to trident triumphs. to, my favorite of show, the matchless.
Long story short, I received "Most Technical Interest" award and was pretty elated the rest of the day. I got a lot of remarks about it's good to see a young guy still building using the technologies of yester year. And I said "how could I not?!" "they had the best looks to start with"

Enjoy

TriEye8
07-06-2011, 8:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I4YMZrueUY