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View Full Version : As usual, S and S super E carb problems.



Crawdadbobb
08-21-2017, 4:57 PM
I have an s and s super e on a 73 shovel. Had problems with drag pipes and intermediate jet size. So I switched to mac turnouts. Larger diameter pipe with no baffle. My problem is with idling. Bike wants to die at stop signs,etc. bike is "tuned" per s and s spec sheets. Above 3000 rpm bike runs perfect. I have gone from a .28 to a .32 intermediate jet it stays alive a little longer but still dies. Talked to a shop about buying a .33, and a .35 to see if I could iron out the idle problem. And the guy flipped out and said I am putting too big of intermediate jet in the bike and it'll run to rich. Any one have experience with going that high on the intermediate jet or is this guy bs? . It's a 74 cubic bored .40 over.

SamHain
08-21-2017, 6:14 PM
I'd expect a 28 or 295 to be plenty. And I'd expect a larger diameter pipe to make problems of drags even more noticeable.

Though either should at least run and idle. The intermediate shouldnt have dramatic effect at idle if its close, mixture and idle speed are going to adjust that

BlackCloudSalvage
08-22-2017, 7:29 AM
I just recently dealt with a nearly similar issue on my '75 shovel. Drag pipes,
but only 1-3/4" I believe. Wouldn't idle with my hand off throttle. Died at stop lights. Poor starting. My trusted local shop buddy told me my 031 was too big and gave me a 0295. The second tip he gave me was to make sure to take the enrichener apart and clean the needle and seat really good or else fuel will sneak by easily and keep it richer than needed. I did all that and of course timed my points which were way off, and checked push rods. Now it fires after a couple prime kicks and 1 with spark. Idles like a champ nice and low.

FooDog
08-22-2017, 6:39 PM
I just recently dealt with a nearly similar issue on my '75 shovel. Drag pipes,
but only 1-3/4" I believe. Wouldn't idle with my hand off throttle. Died at stop lights. Poor starting. My trusted local shop buddy told me my 031 was too big and gave me a 0295. The second tip he gave me was to make sure to take the enrichener apart and clean the needle and seat really good or else fuel will sneak by easily and keep it richer than needed. I did all that and of course timed my points which were way off, and checked push rods. Now it fires after a couple prime kicks and 1 with spark. Idles like a champ nice and low.

How did you clean the seat for the enrichener? Got down in there with a q-tip or something?

I got a shovel with an S&S E & drags that'll run great, then randomly stall at a light. Drives me crazy.

tomsoftail
08-22-2017, 9:36 PM
I just recently dealt with a nearly similar issue on my '75 shovel. Drag pipes,
but only 1-3/4" I believe. Wouldn't idle with my hand off throttle. Died at stop lights. Poor starting. My trusted local shop buddy told me my 031 was too big and gave me a 0295. The second tip he gave me was to make sure to take the enrichener apart and clean the needle and seat really good or else fuel will sneak by easily and keep it richer than needed. I did all that and of course timed my points which were way off, and checked push rods. Now it fires after a couple prime kicks and 1 with spark. Idles like a champ nice and low.

I hate to be that guy but... if you can tie your shoes you can at least get a super -e to start and idle. The part where BCS explains to keep the enrichner in good shape is key!

I see lots of guys that keep the enrichener cracked open. That is wrong! Open it to start then idle it with throttle for a few then close it up 100%.
If you keep the enrichener open it will eventually foul plugs and make the cylinder heads extra sooty.

Dougtheinternetannoyance123
08-23-2017, 1:19 AM
The issue is, you guys are tuning AROUND the problem. Just like the Blond who lost her diamond off her ring.

** A guy has a trophy wife super hot blond, but typical trophy wife she is a little ditzy. So he comes home one day after a long day at work and finds her outside the front door, porch light is on and he sees her crawling around on her hands and knees by the front steps into the house. He of course asks whats wrong and she tearfully tells him that she came home with groceries and while trying to get her keys out she knocked the diamond out of her wedding ring. She knew he would be upset so spent the last 2 hours searching. Hard to be angry with that so tells her he will help her look. After painstaking searching he aint finding crappola, so out of frustration asks her "Are you SURE you lost it here?" And,,,,,,,,,,,drumroll please!.................. She answers :



"Well, no,, I think it fell out by the driveway but I cant see anything out there so the lights are better here!" ***

The issue is IDLE circuit!!!! This is common with Mikunis as well (Round slide VM types) as they dont have a choke but they DO have a "Enrichener circuit" and its very similar to the S&S super E enrichener. So, what happens is with todays modern fuel it clogs up things,, alcohol, water, and smegma. Smallest orifices first. So on a Mikuni you remove the enrichener plunger (Brass) and spray liberally with a can of Brake cleaner or carb cleaner in a Aerosol can. Remove the air cleaner and open the slide and look for "Proofing" the passage is cleared. Same with the S&S. I have found that with both the CV type carbs and the S&S on my HDs that if the bike sits more than 2 weeks its very hard to start and does not like to idle.

One trick I often do is remove The air filter when this happens and take a shop rag and hold it over the opening while cranking over with the electric leg. As I feel the engine take a HUGE gulp of air I muffle it the opening with the rag a few cycles and then lift off. The bike will often catch and start, but then stumble and I repeat off-on until it stabilizes. You can hear and feel when the idle circuit clears as the bike settles down and runs smoothly. The enrichener circuits on the stock HD CV carbs and S&S super E all have a bump up in Idle speed so its pretty clear. If that does not work I pull the bowl and the enrichener plunger assy and blow it out with carb or preferably Brake cleaner. (Brake cleaner is more aggressive) then blow out with compressed air and a small air tip/probe,

But the problem is your idle circuit, not your mids or main jets.

I have mucho problem-o with my chain saws, weedwacker, roto tiller and mower. I try to only buy alcohol free fuel for the home and shop equipment and minimize the use of street gas in my bikes. But if you must then regular doses of Chevron Techron fuel cleaner (The full strength stuff,, the weak shit sold in 2 packs at costco is watered down). Run your tank to less than 1/4 tank. (Cars bikes ATV what ever) and add the Chevron techron full bottle. This is a rare case of "MORE IS BETTER" The fumes are pretty toxic but works well. Do this about once a month in all your gasoline 4 stroke engines. (2 stroke too)

I have a friend who teaches Fuel injection tech to auto dealership mechanics all over the western US. He tells the techs it is one of the few miracles in a bottle that actually works. The Techron shit is mostly straight Naptha and other powerful solvents that will do a great job of cleaning, especially fuel injector nozzles. His advice is basically the same, and run the hell out of it up and down the freeway at high speed/revs with this stuff, THEN run it on diagnostics. It clears codes, and all the rocks-trees-boulders will be cleared. If it still wont run right then check sensors and injectors but 8 times out of 10 it will clear up driveability issues.

(Some swear by Seafoam as well,, I cant say for sure but the couple times I tried it, it didnt hurt so I suppose it might be good as well)

I told a friend about this same advice with his logging crews and he said all their issues with their saws cleared up using my method. (plus he buys only alcohol free fuel now), All their STIHL saws are now 4 stroke but they still run a 2 stroke mix so they add the techron and a little Marvel mystery oil for every batch of 2 stroke fuel mix. It stinks but it works.

The Horse magazine did some tests a few years ago about the shit fuels and "Oxygenated fuels" IE: Alcohol fuels. The pictures they posted of what that shit does to carbs and fuel systems is pretty shocking, Look up the articles.

Revelator
08-23-2017, 10:01 AM
Doug is correct the idle mix screw on the "E" needs to
be adjusted correctly, It has a huge affect on idle. the intermediate
jet does not kick in until the butterfly open up (around 1/4 throttle).

each time you change an intermediate jet You must re adjust the idle screw.

as for the intermediate jet, anything over 31 is likely to be too large.
I run a 32 intermediate, but My "E" has the Thunderjet which requires a fatter
Intermediate jet. the 29.5 is the most common on a standard super "E" (without thunderjet).

Crawdadbobb
08-23-2017, 6:30 PM
Ok all good points. The super E on the bike is brand spanking new. And yes after I pulled the drags of I properly warmed up the bike and retuned carb, then played the increase intermediate jet game for the awful idle ( again, retuning ) I suppose there is a possible chance in bike mechanic hell that even on a new carb the enrichener circuit is dirty so I will check it. There are no problems with bike starting, just a pissy temperamental shovel that wants to die at stop lights without (being a throttle revving douche)

here is a symptom though. I pulled the enrichner up just a cunt hair and I mean just that and it ran pretty dang good and didn't fight me. But the minute I push it down, kaput.

Crawdadbobb
08-23-2017, 6:33 PM
My other idea is to throw the drags back on and try some home made Lollie pops

Crawdadbobb
08-23-2017, 6:36 PM
Oh and bike is fitted with a crane fireball

Dougtheinternetannoyance123
08-23-2017, 11:31 PM
well, the enrichener being slightly engaged says 2 things. You are probably WAY lean so look at why if the bike wont run without the enrichener on.

Air leak? (Intake seals or carb joint?) or, not unheard of for a new carb to have what is known as "Swarf" which could be packing materials, machine shop shavings, dust, dirt, dead fly, etc etc blocking the idle circuit.

Do 2 things, have a friend help but get either a propane torch, dont light it but turn it on and hold the tip near the cyl head joints, the carb mount flange and any other intake related points,. (Do I need to point out not to do this in an enclosed garage, have an extinguisher handy, as well as dont do it in a strong wind either) but if the motor speeds up you found a leak.

If that doesnt indicate any issues then carefully take apart the carb and CLEAN CLEAN every orifice and PROOF each circuit,, that means take a can of carb cleaner, add the little red straw and spray EVERY passage and make sure they are clear., lots of compressed air as well with a fine tip air nozzle. Go to the S&S website and download their manuals and tuning PDFs.. they are great! But learn how each circuit works and where they go.

Finally, there is a mixture accelerator pump and anything off idle a plunger rod engages a small pump well and adds fuel,, there is specific instructions on how to dial that in and adjust it. I dont think its your primary problem as I strongly believe you have a clogged idle jet or a leak, but that accelerator pump being setup wrong is often an issue as well for the transition from Idle to part throttle.

SamHain
08-24-2017, 1:12 AM
I prefer to spray for intake leaks with carb or brake cleaner, mine has passed with propane but will flat out stall with spray enough times that I gave up on that route.

Ozarksbikebum
08-28-2017, 12:48 PM
Great advice all around. I'd like to add that ANY leaks be it intake or exhaust,minuscule or not makes your S&S carb cranky. When I rebuilt mine I use only canned air -like they clean computers with- to blow everything out. it'll eliminate the change of contaminates. Check all your seals, I use WD-40 to check for intake leaks... Idle will pick-up if you have em. I have V&H long shots and used incense smoke to find exhaust leaks. Where the Head pipes came into the long shots, I used a bit of manifold tape to seal those joints. As chicken shit as they seem those leaks will have you chasing your tail.
Fuel was also mentioned. I try to gas-up at the same place- no corn. Good Luck

farmall
08-28-2017, 1:50 PM
You can get disposable inline filters for painting if your compressed air supply is questionable. (I leave my tank drains slightly cracked to avoid water retention.) Harbor Freight and others have them. You can also buy a filter/separator and quick-connect it to the end of your airline at point of use. Hang it so it's vertical and enjoy. Harbor Freight is fine as they are simple devices.

The smoke idea is sound and smoke machines are often used on car/truck evap and vacuum system troubleshooting. There are videos showing homebuilt versions, and inespensive machines on Ebay. I'd like an excuse to make one but all my evap shit is working.

Clear RTV is fine for sealing exhaust pipe joints. I also reuse exhaust rings on my Evos that way and heat isn't an issue.

SSCycle
08-30-2017, 10:29 AM
There's a few issues you could be having, from settings being wrong to jets, and also, drag pipes. We will always advise against drag pipes, unless you're using them to drag race. Give our tech guys a call, and go over everything with them in detail - it's free - and they'll help you get the settings dialed.
866-244-2673

Dougtheinternetannoyance123
08-30-2017, 2:36 PM
Thats AWESOME that S&S responded here, quality people, quality products. Im just getting warm fuzzies here over this whole thing.

Tattooo
08-30-2017, 5:01 PM
There's a few issues you could be having, from settings being wrong to jets, and also, drag pipes. We will always advise against drag pipes, unless you're using them to drag race. Give our tech guys a call, and go over everything with them in detail - it's free - and they'll help you get the settings dialed.
866-244-2673


What's wrong with helping them on here??? It's free here too...............

Don't get me wrong it's nice to see you post but if you want to help then help on here..... That way it doesn't look like your just trying to sell parts....

SamHain
08-30-2017, 6:06 PM
What's wrong with helping them on here??? It's free here too...............

Don't get me wrong it's nice to see you post but if you want to help then help on here..... That way it doesn't look like your just trying to sell parts....

Maybe it's easier to stay on top of tasks without reading through countless posts through the day. If he needs parts I imagine they suggest them, just like people that aren't s&s do here....
a phone call going through shit in real time without either party waiting on the other while trying to stay involved/focused is way more efficient.....

Tattooo
08-30-2017, 6:23 PM
Maybe it's easier to stay on top of tasks without reading through countless posts through the day. If he needs parts I imagine they suggest them, just like people that aren't s&s do here....
a phone call going through shit in real time without either party waiting on the other while trying to stay involved/focused is way more efficient.....


Kind of like them posting here just a few times a year???? Also what kind of an answer is.... {There's a few issues you could be having, from settings being wrong to jets, and also, drag pipes.} Well no shit......

Also, Why have a forum at all since there is a lag in response time....... What about wait time on the phone.....

SamHain
08-30-2017, 7:00 PM
Kind of like them posting here just a few times a year???? Also what kind of an answer is.... {There's a few issues you could be having, from settings being wrong to jets, and also, drag pipes.} Well no shit......

Also, Why have a forum at all since there is a lag in response time....... What about wait time on the phone.....
Waiting on the phone for a few minutes vs. what could be days online? Huh, I don't know why, that's a real good question.

Time isn't always of the essence. 99% of the time I'm on here it means I'm not at home or around my bikes, but I'm damn sure thinking of them so forums are a great place During downtime. If I'm at home and can't figure something out or find an answer via google, I want to find a fast answer while I'm still home..

farmall
08-30-2017, 8:03 PM
I know Mac turnouts can work decently on a Shovel since I have a 1982 80" that's had them since around 1990. Camshaft unknown (my late wife built the engine) but it's running a 31 and a 73. No idle issues and it's got many thousands of miles with that setup.

I can't see a reason to go over 31. Something else isn't right.

For shits and grins I'd reseat the intake manifold at least, and when I do that I replace the seals if they aren't like new. I keep spares handy and if I need one kit I order two since they are consumable items.

Tiny leaks can require much more fuel to compensate and be frustrating to troubleshoot.

...

I'm bored so I found the MSDS for Techron. I like buying solvents cheap at the hardware store. My friends are acetone and MEK but naptha etc will certainly cut varnish.

http://www.barbieritrucking.com/uploads/1/4/6/1/14614916/chevron_techron_concentrate_plus.pdf

I encourage other cheap fuckers do check MSDS as nearly all are online for legal reasons.

Note if you fuck with fuel injectors and solvent cleaning doesn't help: Solvents do nothing to rust and other solids and if your fuel system is shitty enough dislodged solid can build up in the final filter screen in the injector. They work nicely on carbs though.

Tattooo
08-30-2017, 8:17 PM
Waiting on the phone for a few minutes vs. what could be days online? Huh, I don't know why, that's a real good question.

Time isn't always of the essence. 99% of the time I'm on here it means I'm not at home or around my bikes, but I'm damn sure thinking of them so forums are a great place During downtime. If I'm at home and can't figure something out or find an answer via google, I want to find a fast answer while I'm still home..

No problem..... So S$S is your go to place to ask questions??? That's great............ Hope it works out for you....

Dragstews
08-30-2017, 8:31 PM
The S&S Boys has always been very helpful with problems that sometime sticks their ugly heads up... Even on products that are not theirs...

They have many departments that does certain jobs .... Ya might get passed around a bit, but I'm more than sure they will bump heads with others till they have the answers....

Their Tech Service Line is free to all...
Not many companies offers this ....

http://i60.tinypic.com/k9on8.jpg

Tattooo
08-30-2017, 8:44 PM
The S&S Boys has always been very helpful with problems that sometime sticks their ugly head up... Even on products that are not theirs...

They have many departments that does certain jobs .... Ya might get passed around a bit, but I'm more than sure they will bump heads with others till they have the answers....

Jesse my friend we have had this conversation many times before, after S$S comes on here and half ass answers a question.... Well kinda...... Then in the end they want you to call them@S$S..........

I'm sure they are a great company but what I don't understand is, If they are going to take the time to come here and kinda answer a question why not just answer it??????????????? Can you or S$S answer that question for me???

Tattooo
08-30-2017, 8:48 PM
Ya might get passed around a bit, but I'm more than sure they will bump heads with others till they have the answers....



Well damn, It sounds a lot like CC to me............

Dragstews
08-30-2017, 8:52 PM
The S&S Fellow that is here on this forum is not a Tech Rep....
He does other work for S&S .... What he is saying is .... Call, the help is there if needed ....

The Tech line is a free service that they provide ....
If you choose to use it ...

Tattooo
08-30-2017, 8:59 PM
The fellow that is here on this forum is not a Tech Rep....
He does other work for S&S .... What he is saying is .... Call, the help is there if needed ....

The Tech line is a free service that they provide ....
If you choose to use it ...

LOL I guess I'll have to go back to putting their phone number in many peoples questions here on cc like I did a while back.... Remember??? LOL

SamHain
08-30-2017, 9:06 PM
No problem..... So S$S is your go to place to ask questions??? That's great............ Hope it works out for you....
Nah never needed to call them, plenty of others though. Doesn't seem that hard to figure out why they don't dedicate a ton of time to forums though, this thread is a week old and I don't even know of the problem still exists. And every carb thread repeats the same handful of ideas.

Dragstews
08-30-2017, 9:07 PM
LOL I guess I'll have to go back to putting their phone number in many people's questions here on cc like I did a while back.... Remember??? LOL

Well .... If that's your calling.. Go for it ... :D

Me .... I'm grateful that they keep the Tech Lines open....
Yes, I don't know it all (Heard that will get a name hung on ya) .... And when I do want professional advice, take a guess who I'm on the horn with ??

Dougtheinternetannoyance123
08-30-2017, 10:54 PM
Thanks FARMALL for the tech references, and analysis. I will truly sleep better tonight knowing that Chinese Hamster Ovary (CHO) cell
chromosomal aberration, cell sister chromatid exchange assay, and in vivo rat bone marrow chromosome aberration are all safe and sound, that was a big concern for me as well as I am sure others. We cant do enough to protect those commie hamster ovaries and should be the topic of the next G20 summit.
But in the years I have been using it, Its worked well for me.(Techron) Still say its cool that S & S posted in here. On some XL forums I see a lot of help from Hammer Perf and NRHS and on other forums such product reps like Andy Chain post helpful tech, but I just ordered some S&S parts for one of my projects and I am pleased to support an American company who still engages in the end user community despite some static.
Some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope.

Dragstews
08-31-2017, 3:40 AM
I am pleased to support an American company who still engages in the end user community despite some static.

Some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope.

My goodness ....
Was that a innuendo ... ??

Tattooo
08-31-2017, 7:45 AM
Me .... I grateful that they keep the Tech Lines open....
Yes, I don't know it all (Heard that will get a name hung on ya) .... And when I do want professional advice, take a guess who I'm on the horn with ??

Good morning Jesse..... I never said people shouldn't call S$S, Like I've said before I'm sure they are a great company.... And a great place to call if you need motor or anything else help for that matter... I don't know everything they can help people with other than motor stuff????? that's a question???

farmall
08-31-2017, 8:44 AM
Thanks FARMALL for the tech references, and analysis. I will truly sleep better tonight knowing that Chinese <snipped>,

Fuck the hamsters (after duct taping them so they don't split). I use MSDS to figure out how to copy useful products. MSDS = recipe!

According to my estimates I'll only need this planet for about twenty years max. Meantime I have parts to clean, and any new chemical input I help generate is a new evolutionary pressure.

What we don't kill will be stronger, and perhaps amusingly mutated.

Tattooo
08-31-2017, 9:37 AM
My friends are acetone and MEK but naptha etc will certainly cut varnish.

Which do you like the best farm??? I'm sure different ones clean differently but which one is your go to first?? Thanks

Tattooo
08-31-2017, 9:42 AM
Doesn't seem that hard to figure out why they don't dedicate a ton of time to forums though, this thread is a week old and I don't even know of the problem still exists.

Yes sir I totally agree.... That is the same occurrence with any thread..... But you know that would be the same thing if people were to call S$S..... Once they hand up how would they/S$S know if that fixed the problem unless the caller called them back???

Just a thought...........

Dragstews
08-31-2017, 9:45 AM
They can help people with other than motor stuff????? that's a question???

Dang good question .....

Perhaps you could call them and ask ..?? 866-244-2673

But don't ask em which came first the Chicken or the Egg.. ???
(I made the mistake of asking that and got a long story that basically boiled down to "Jusssssssst a little out of our area of expertise...!!!")

Tattooo
08-31-2017, 9:48 AM
Dang good question .....

Perhaps you could call them and ask ..?? 866-244-2673

But don't ask em which came first the Chicken or the Egg.. ???
(I made the mistake of asking that and got a long story that basically boiled down to "Jusssssssst a little out of our area of expertise...!!!")


LOL Hell no your not drawing me into that.... LOL I figured since you use there services you might know...... Maybe the S$S guy on here might let us know is he knows????

SSCycle
08-31-2017, 2:33 PM
We're not just trying to sell parts, don't worry. But no, we don't have a tech dedicated to forums (that would be a lot of wasted time reading through posts!) - often times we have 5 or 12 questions to ask you back. What year, what engine, what upgrades, have you tried this, have you tried that, etc, that would take a day of going back and forth.

If there's something we CAN answer shortly on here, we try to! But often times tech advice takes a lot more back and forth, that's much more easily answered on the phone. If you wanted to know what jets to use for a certain alititude ("I live in Denver, what jets should I start on?") that's easy to answer.

Our tech line is for advice on any of our products, and even how our products work with other brands. We're here to remind you that you CAN call us for help! Keep in mind, we do our best to monitor not just CC, but many other moto forums out there. The tech guys spend all day answering calls, it's definitely the easiest route for getting answers quickly and efficiently.

Tattooo
08-31-2017, 2:43 PM
But no, we don't have a tech dedicated to forums (that would be a lot of wasted time reading through posts!) - often times we have 5 or 12 questions to ask you back. What year, what engine, what upgrades, have you tried this, have you tried that, etc, that would take a day of going back and forth.


^^^^^^^ That sounds like something we do day in day out... Here on CC.. I don't consider it a waste of time.... It's just helping people that need help or a point in the right direction....

It would be real nice if we had the luxury to talk in real time.... You are so right it is the easiest route.....

Do you get many responses on if what you suggested worked or not????????? We only get a few.........


Thanks for responding and your help of people that call S$S...... I'll be sending more your way.....