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View Full Version : MADE IN U.S.A. - does it mean anything anymore?



boomboomthump
04-14-2016, 10:38 PM
I'm not one to usually run to the internet to whine about shit before I pick up the phone and attempt to resolve things myself but I'm sitting here wondering how the hell anyone could pack and ship a part like this, let alone a company who proudly labels things "MADE IN U.S.A."


Now, I've never had any issues with BDL belt drives but... like... how?!?


- How do you machine a raw clutch basket casting and not see the obvious defect in the casting?
- How do you proceed to hard anodize the part and then inspect the anodized finish and not see the defect in the casting?
- How do you proceed to rivet the ears to the basket, press in the steel bearing race and not see the defect in the casting?
- How does the finished product pass quality control, get packed in a box with "made in USA" stickers and blah, blah, blah and someone not see the defect in the casting?

I can only come to one answer: It was a conscious decision to continue through each of those stages instead of simply throwing this thing in the junk pile.


Curious to see what their take on this is. Is it superficial? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows what else lurks in this casting? Regardless, I just can't understand someone shipping this out as-is. What happened to pride in quality?


(click for bigger version)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12749461/_whiplash/Photo%20Apr%2014%2C%209%2013%2004%20PM.jpg (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12749461/_whiplash/Photo%20Apr%2014%2C%209%2013%2004%20PM.jpg)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12749461/_whiplash/Photo%20Apr%2014%2C%209%2013%2018%20PM.jpg (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12749461/_whiplash/Photo%20Apr%2014%2C%209%2013%2018%20PM.jpg)

Tattooo
04-14-2016, 10:59 PM
I agree with you...... Pride and quality is a thing of the past................ I've thought that for years..... People today could care less how good they do a job, all they want is to get paid......

I guess that's what really pisses me off when people ask a question how to fix something that they fucked up because they were in a hurry and didn't think through what they were about to do........

LOL Hell why would you want to make the pic any larger?????? LOL It's huge now......

Dane
04-14-2016, 11:01 PM
That's yucky. I've seen better quality from China.

None
04-15-2016, 4:18 AM
Short answer ... no. It's largely just sales bait for conservatives now.

I've had similar problems with other "top level" products, like Cycle Electric Inc and they blamed Harley because it was Harley who made/supplied the respective parts ... but everyone let them pass through QA.

Does someone working on a minimum wage in the US care any more than someone working on a minimum wage in 'wherever you choose'?

Twist1
04-15-2016, 6:19 AM
I sent a stranger from another website a pumper carb for a DR650, with the throttle cable. He was going to send me his stocker. A great deal for him, even better deal when he never sent me the stock carb and got a free TM40 pumper. Recently a sale on ebay, the item showed paid for, I shipped it. His funds were not there, I called Ebay and they put me over to paypal. Their mistake, never got paid. Nobody gives a shit. I will support a US product 100% if everything is cool.

Tattooo
04-15-2016, 6:21 AM
Does someone working on a minimum wage in the US care any more than someone working on a minimum wage in 'wherever you choose'?

I've seen people that make $35.00 an hour not care about the work they do..... So money has nothing to do with it.......What they care about is 5 o'clock....

You see it time and time again on here...... People working on there own bike wanting to take the easy and cheap way out instead of doing it right the first time..... 90% of the time the easy way isn't always the cheapest way...

BlackCloudSalvage
04-15-2016, 8:04 AM
I work for an aircraft manufacturer and you should see what some folks try to slip past quality control. They get so pissed when quality rejects a job for a defect or out of tolerance. I respect the strict inspectors.

None
04-15-2016, 8:17 AM
I've seen people that make $35.00 an hour not care about the work they do..... So money has nothing to do with it.......What they care about is 5 o'clock....

.... or Facebook and their latest phone messages.

I am genuinely concerned at where society is going to end up in 20 years time with kids start on skunk in their pre-teens and all this induced "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity".

I kind of see it going like it was on 'Idiocracy', the movie.

Cannot argue with the $35 either. In fact, I'll see you and raise you on that ... is the whole "bad ass" attitude in the Harley world part of that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3boy_tLWeqA

bohica2xo
04-15-2016, 8:32 AM
Have you contacted the manufacturer? What did they say about it?

I do some tooling work for a company that still makes loudspeakers in the USA. They say so on the website, but don't put USA stickers on anything.

One of their competitors plasters USA stickers on everything - yet all of their crap is made offshore. They bring it in as sub-assemblies, and screw it together with junk china bolts - and call it "Made in USA". We refer to that process as "Manu-packaging" Manufacturing by repackaging.

It is an uphill battle to actually make metal parts in the USA. Every State, County, and City agency is up your ass about three feet about everything you do. I once had the city cocksuckers wringing their hands about the possibility of metal dust in my sandblaster. They wanted to see the hazmat paperwork for disposing of the used sand...

Some of us still make things in the USA with pride. I would be interested to hear the manufacturer's answers regarding this part.

StinkyPete
04-15-2016, 12:44 PM
I've run into a few issues with stuff, but not as bad as foreign. I've gotten some foreign parts that are so off, they're just unsuable. I still aim for USA made over others, but it might just be the principal of it.

Having said that, I always will aim for old made in the USA over current. Our investment in people, tools and execution seems to be on the decline. If we don't care about our people, get the excited, motivated or wanting to make the business better - why should we be surprised they don't care all that much? It's prob also ok to say that are people aren't what they used to be either.

boomboomthump
04-15-2016, 1:15 PM
Tried Scott and Alan from BDL tech support by phone a few times and as usual, just get their voicemail. Sent an email this morning with the pictures and on my last attempt at call just now, left a voicemail.


I've had mixed results in getting a call back from them in the past. I'm usually more successful by picking the "accounting" extension and explaining how I can't get someone in tech support on the phone and then they magically make it happen. I'll go that route on Monday afternoon if I don't hear back sooner.


Showed the pics to my indy who I purchased it from and his response was "WTF?". Told him I'll see how far I get with BDL myself before I get him involved w/ VTWIN which is the distributor he used. I'll keep you guys posted. Still can't believe they'd put their name on this.

bohica2xo
04-15-2016, 6:35 PM
Far worse than making the occasional bad part - not answering your damn phone!

Hope you get some resolution on this.

Years of manufacturing experience tells me the guy that riveted the bars in that hub needs a bitch slap.
Take a pallet full of parts off the CNC, and dump them in the tumbler without looking? Sure. Send them to the anodize shop straight out of the tumbler? Sure, stupid, but it happens.

But the rivets? That is not a fully automated job. Someone had that part within a foot or two of his face, for several minutes. Saying "Hey boss this looks like shit" should not be a problem for anybody with pride in workmanship.

boomboomthump
04-15-2016, 8:15 PM
Yep, exactly my thinking. And then also pressing in the steel bearing race and whoever packed it.

Jessechop
04-15-2016, 9:37 PM
Dont feel bad. I saved up $2k to buy a custom set of race leathers. Buy American everyone said. Neither Vanson or Bates will return a call or email (I work hours that dont allow me to call when they are open). Cash in hand, ready to order and no one will take my damn money. Go figure

jsaz666
04-15-2016, 10:41 PM
It's sad. I have mixed results with import and US companies. I know a lot of people have had issues with BDL, but I got help with an older GMA brake caliper in one phone call. I also ordered a BDL Competitor clutch which was perfect, and works as good as it looks.

LRChops
04-16-2016, 1:28 AM
I had the same thing happen from STD Heads. I ordered a set of STD Panheads and when they arrived they had not been packaged properly. The heads had rubbed together and were scarred up. The spray foam packing was horrible. If STD would have taken a few extra seconds to package properly, it would have saved everyone involved a lot of headaches and time. BUT, they have some chump packaging and shipping without giving a shit. Seems that integrity and principal have dissipated in the USA. Ever since the rule makers removed industrial arts programs from high schools, everything has gone to shit. Our kids are being raised behind video games and gay TV rather than being raised from responsibility and ingenuity. Its a cultural break down. Everyone gets a trophy and the system has turned boys into pussies.

vonhelmet
04-16-2016, 6:29 AM
Yup, why work hard? You still get a trophy if you do nothing.

Tattooo
04-16-2016, 7:31 AM
Our kids are being raised behind video games and gay TV rather than being raised from responsibility and ingenuity. Its a cultural break down. Everyone gets a trophy and the system has turned boys into pussies.

Man you got that right...... When you tell people today they fucked up because they didn't think before they did what they did..... They want to get mad because I didn't hold there hand and tell them it will be ok...... WTF....... Grow up........

farmall
04-16-2016, 9:08 AM
For the money they get for these parts, that cosmetic damage should not have gone through the system or it should have been sold as a "blemished" product at a discount.

This shit happens globally. For example some older Taiwanese machine tools are decent and some newer tools suck! At least we have the internet to compare buying experiences quickly.

A tire plant near me recently displayed a million dollars worth of scrap on pallets in their facility. The workers are mostly dindus who don't give a shit and incapable of getting the message.

Davestune
04-16-2016, 9:14 AM
Yup, why work hard? You still get a trophy if you do nothing.

can I haz a participation trophy for replying ....

farmall
04-16-2016, 3:54 PM
can I haz a participation trophy for replying ....

Happy to provide, but you may not want this one:

None
04-16-2016, 4:11 PM
Having said that, I always will aim for old made in the USA over current. Our investment in people, tools and execution seems to be on the decline. If we don't care about our people, get the excited, motivated or wanting to make the business better - why should we be surprised they don't care all that much? It's prob also ok to say that are people aren't what they used to be either.
I accept the facts of what you're saying very well, except to the limit of when you say "we". And there's the root of problem.

There is no "we".

"They" don't have any loyalty to us; the flag, workers and American people any more, hence the lack of right investment in making them as well (what others are saying about education etc). "They" have been making people dumber for some time. "Their" loyalty is only to the dollar, the dollar has replaced flag ... and many of them never actually had loyalty to it in the first place.

Who am I talking about?*I don't know specifically ... I am not a conspiracy theorist ... but it's obvious over in the industrialist/banker/capitalist corner. The idea of economy has just become "rape and pillage" for short term rewards, a mugging of society. Or rather the "rape and pillage" faction has just let loose and empowered, their liberty ensured by political donations and manipulation of the political machine.

Of course, the Baby Boobers carry the ultimate responsibility for having their heads up their own asses and allowing it all to happen ... including the pussification and all the *mental* and physical obesity that is handicapping for life so many these days ... and the shit really is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later.

You can read the history of how it has happened, i.e. the deliberate and coordinated disempowerment of workers and working communities. It exists, and not just on whack job websites.

And it's out of anyone's control now ... so stockpile those old tools, castings and accessories while you can.

You're talking high value items. I thinking now of even simple tools to do the jobs. It amaze me ... I have a 40 year old pair of cutters that still cut perfectly but if I buy a new pair, I get may be half a dozen cuts of them before they blunt. Same too with screw drivers, keys and all the rest of it. Of course, that's China raping and pillaging for foreign currency in the American/world market ... but 'our' "they" have not only allowed it to happen, but made a big buck out of it too.

Don't include them in the "us".

farmall
04-16-2016, 5:09 PM
There are many industrial tools etc which are very well made, but outside usual consumer channels. Look at Ebay, estate auctions and liquidations for deals to outfit your shop because there's a lot of "modern" (and of course old) gear out there.



I have a 40 year old pair of cutters that still cut perfectly but if I buy a new pair, I get may be half a dozen cuts of them before they blunt.

Must be consumer junk. Klein cutters are far better than that. I welded one handle to a steel plate for a bench mount and made hundreds of cuts through 2/32 and 1/8" carbon and stainless TIG rod using a hunk of pipe on the other handle for leverage.

slinginrods
04-16-2016, 5:40 PM
Of course, the Baby Boobers carry the ultimate responsibility for having their heads up their own asses and allowing it all to happen ... including the pussification and all the *mental* and physical obesity that is handicapping for life so many these days ... and the shit really is going to hit the fan sooner rather than later.

Well I'm not sure about the baby boomers being the root ,as my father qualifies as that .assuming you mean the generation born from 1941 - 1949 him and my mother were and are hard working people who taught me that you get what you earn . now the parents I see raising children today ( parent generation born in the 90s ) are the ones teaching everyone should get a trophy , and all the political bs . look the world is hard , its not all buttercups and unicorns, racism does exist as well as classification. I do agree that the baby boomers are responsible for the gross lies that has conned us into thinking its OK to eat McDonalds 5 days a week .they are the generation that built the preservative food culture we live in now.they also are the ones who helped destroy usa industry through unionization of ever fucking thing .

None
04-16-2016, 8:47 PM
I would have put it later than that ... Post-War born. I just read it is defined as 1946 – 1964 but, again, I would have shortened that to pre-1960 too.

It's hard to imagine how different that world was to today's, pre-deep refridgeration and container ships ... birth of mass consumerism ... destruction of natural farming etc.

That's a strange bundling in of different element you have there ... and do you really believe "the unions" destroyed industry?

You'd need to look again at history, especially at the 1970s and countries that didn't destroy their unions, such as Germany, France and the Scandinavian countries. Their economies recovered just as fast as the USA's did, and now workers there are working 35 hour weeks with 5 week holidays and full benefits. And I'd buy a German or Scandinavian tool or vehicle any day sure it'd just work.

Political and criminal corruption within the unions destroying them, now that's a different matter and a particular American thing, according to specific agendas as well as personal interests.

StinkyPete
04-17-2016, 11:59 AM
I accept the facts of what you're saying very well, except to the limit of when you say "we". And there's the root of problem.

There is no "we". Don't include them in the "us".

Sorry, but I have a "If you're not part of the solution..." mindset when it comes to problems.

I don't see business as being to blame anymore than consumers. It's no individual's / agency's / company's job (schools & parents excluded) to make anyone smarter, more responsible, more accountable, or to help someone open their eyes and look around at the state of things. We were headed in the right direction - we pushed back the robber barons, unionized, etc. and had a booming economy as a production society. Then somehow we lost our way and migrated to a knowledge worker society. Everyday there are consumers buying cheap shit that they don't need, trying to collect as much credit as they can run up, spending hours consuming media and not doing anything productive. I don't give "them" enough credit for engineering these distractions - human behavior is too unpredictable.

I was raised by depression era grandparents who did not allow idle time. They understood hardship and overcoming adversity through self-reliance. I wasn't there, so I can't say that their problems are better or worse than ours. I would speculate worse, but we don't work as hard to fix our problems anymore.

Required reading:
http://www.amazon.com/A-Peoples-History-United-States/dp/0060838655

None
04-18-2016, 6:28 AM
It's no individual's / agency's / company's job (schools & parents excluded) to make anyone smarter, more responsible, more accountable, or to help someone open their eyes and look around at the state of things. We were headed in the right direction - we pushed back the robber barons, unionized, etc. and had a booming economy as a production society. Then somehow we lost our way ...
Accepted ...

However, it was and remains the interests of plenty of "individuals / agencies / companies" to make us dumber, more divided and impotent.

I certainly agree that "business" is far too broad a church to blame for it all, however, decades worth of a persistent history of State and corporate subversion and disempowerment of the people in all sorts of corners, very often at the beckoning of said individuals, is far too clear and obvious to dismiss.

For example, I'd say the disempowerment of the working classes, by shifting production overseas whether workers are not just cheaper but even less empowered, was a deliberate macro-policy.

What's happened is a terrible tragedy without a doubt and I fear the real shit has yet to hit the fan and when it does it'll make the Depression and era of foreclosures etc look like a church picnic ... largely because we've lost what that generation had in terms of fortitude and practical skills, and remanufactured the land into something that is barren and unsustainable. A consumer society which can only be fed by sucking hard of the rest of the world.

SyndicateChoppers
04-18-2016, 10:21 AM
Being that it came from Vtwin from your Indy shop it wouldn't surprise me if the part was already returned from an unhappy customer and Vtwin put it right back on the shelf instead of sending it back to the manufacturer.
Now that's not an answer as to how it passed quality control other than the fact that someone made a mistake and didn't yank it off the assembly line and toss it in the defect pile.

I don't doubt for a second though that BDL will let you down and not send you a replacement. They will probably even let you keep that "visually defective" one you have there.

BDL has been around for a long time and makes excellent products.
Reality is every now and than stuff slips through the cracks.
Workers that are not working for themselves very rarely take pride in what they do. Again that's just the way it is in our time.

But don't discredit a company if they haven't had the chance to correct the situation (not saying that you are but people that are not really educated in the industry might take it that way)

Also don't forget that companies like BDL and Cycle Electric etc that do not sell to the public generally do not have quick customer service emails or return calls. They sell to distributors because they expect the distributors will handle the tech questions and issues that arise when necessary.

So for the short answer in a long reply, you will probably be better off going back to your Indy shop and having them deal with the situation when it comes to products made by companies that do not sell direct to public

boomboomthump
04-18-2016, 11:01 AM
I was hoping to avoid making this Walter's headache and having him pay for shipping back to VTWIN and dealing with them. Told him I'd keep him posted on how I made out directly and if I'm getting no where, then I'll bring it back over to him.


Just gave them a call again. Got Dan who told me to ship it back. I asked him if they can just ship me out a new one today and he told me not unless I give them a tracking number. Asked if they'll create me a label instead of me paying $20 out of pocket for their mess up (in more polite terms). He told me he was going to go try to find the email I sent on Friday to review the pictures and would call me back.


I've dealt with them enough times in the past to understand the level of customer support I'd get. My main reason for trying to deal with them directly myself is really just to see what they would have to say about the part vs blindly sending it back to VTWIN. Still in awe at multiple people touching this thing and it going out the door.

boomboomthump
04-18-2016, 12:45 PM
Dan just called me back. Didn't offer an explanation but told me they reviewed it and they're shipping me a new one today with a return label for the old one.

seaking
04-18-2016, 12:54 PM
All this JP level bullshit, here's the real world of Casting Quality Control for ya, my buddy who was an employee for a supplier of one of the Big 3:

You start out as a temp at a non-union casting plant that has a three strike rule and you forget to clock in once...strike one......and don't clock in after one smoke break.....strike two! You spend all your time worrying about the axe over your head so you bust your ass for two years and finally get promoted to full time. It then becomes your job to lift heavy castings for surface grinding, inspect for cosmetic defects and run them through the xray. Management bitches at you and puts cosmetic defects back into the production pile instead of riding the casting dept. You get a hernia, you can't lift your arm above your head, no big deal, it heals, sorta.

Then at the ripe old age of 32, after working 6 ten hour consecutive shifts; you're moving your couch out of your apartment and bam! your artery in your leg bursts, you get rushed to the ER for emergency surgery; 5 transfusions and while they're at it, they fix your recurring hernia! What a deal, a two-fer, it's worth it. You too can laugh all the way to the bank for fringe benefits and $11 an hour! Then, after you heal (keep quiet, it's not work related!) you get back to work, they put you right back on the same machine.

I'd march right on back to Wal-Mart too!

That aside I bet it's a "conspiracy!" between BDL and Vtwin to try to pawn all the shit parts off on the customer....not everyone complains.

None
04-18-2016, 3:15 PM
I asked him if they can just ship me out a new one today and he told me not unless I give them a tracking number. Asked if they'll create me a label instead of me paying $20 out of pocket for their mess up (in more polite terms).

Ha. If it happens again, ship an empty box and given them that tracking number.

Another typical, huh? "We screw up or try to screw you and you catch us ... you pay".

It's a shame, in the old days, companies used to send stuff out first and you paid for it second. That, folks, is how much things have changed for the bad in one lifetime.


Having had more than one deal go sour with asshole Ebayers, I was thinking about starting to ship dirty underwear back to the next one that tries it on.

And mine, not some chick's.

Tattooo
04-18-2016, 7:59 PM
It's a shame, in the old days, companies used to send stuff out first and you paid for it second. That, folks, is how much things have changed for the bad in one lifetime.



That all changed when the lazy fucks, that don't want to work for there money..... grew up.....

Revelator
04-19-2016, 1:25 PM
I had the same thing happen from STD Heads. I ordered a set of STD Panheads and when they arrived they had not been packaged properly. The heads had rubbed together and were scarred up. The spray foam packing was horrible. If STD would have taken a few extra seconds to package properly, it would have saved everyone involved a lot of headaches and time. BUT, they have some chump packaging and shipping without giving a shit. Seems that integrity and principal have dissipated in the USA. Ever since the rule makers removed industrial arts programs from high schools, everything has gone to shit. Our kids are being raised behind video games and gay TV rather than being raised from responsibility and ingenuity. Its a cultural break down. Everyone gets a trophy and the system has turned boys into pussies.

Cultural Breakdown is Exactly what is happening.

The Globalist Cabal that controls America, Inc.
have a mission to destroy America because Freedom and prosperity
do not fit into Their various Agendas.

It is too hard to disarm a large Nation, so other methods are used.
Implementing Their covert "Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars" They have managed
to Destroy the wealth, Health, Morality, And Vision of a once great Nation.
When the Old School finally dies off, The remaining
herd of pacified, pussified, Medicated, weak, broke, lazy & stupid sheeple will be much easier to conquer.

Made in USA meant something 50 years ago, But that era is fading fast.

Tattooo
04-19-2016, 2:02 PM
When the Old School finally dies off, The remaining
herd of pacified, pussified, Medicated, weak, broke, lazy & stupid sheeple will be much easier to conquer.

Made in USA meant something 50 years ago, But that era is fading fast.


Well said and I've been saying similar things for years....

cggorman
04-19-2016, 2:10 PM
Made in USA meant something 50 years ago, But that era is fading fast.

It still means a helluva lot to the few Americans still producing stuff. Get Wall Street out of the way so executives can forget about dividends and quarterly reports and refocus on product and personnel. I've watched almost 1000 jobs from my plant move to China and Mexico over the course of the last ten years. Mine is next. I have a little over 30 days left. 20 years with the company. Some had 40 years. Cut loose like rotten bait in the search for higher profits.

vonhelmet
04-19-2016, 2:18 PM
Yes, it still means something to me. I proudly sign my name on every thing I build at work and so do a few others, but the rest of the turds I work with can barely make it in, and then don't do much if they do show up. Then they bitch that the company dosnt treat them right.

farmall
04-19-2016, 4:29 PM
Efficiency also means job destruction. Employees are cost centers so the ideal business has none and next best has few and cheap.

If a manufacturing business can profit nicely with a high reject rate it has little incentive to change.

None
04-20-2016, 7:30 AM
I was reading an article which compared the real value of someones at the bottom of the pile (blue collar/women) and someones at the top.

Basically it broken down to for every dollar those at the bottom cost, they produce 7 more, and for every dollar those at the top cost, they destroyed 7 (approx figures).

Underlines the idea that what we have is not a national or global economy, but a national or global robbery. The robber barons never went away.

And I say, "few, cheap ... and very far away in vulnerable circumstances, with few rights, and under dictatorial regimes".

I'd buy into any idea that the same circumstances are being engineered inside the country too.

Scooter trash and their ecosystem? Does not figure in The Big Plan™.