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Wilroh
07-08-2014, 2:52 PM
Has anyone had any experience with Fred Hernandez (Freds Frames) of , 225-1/2 S. Orange St. , Rialto Ca. 92376-6403 , phone 909-875-1523 ? I have had a springer front end ordered since January of 2104 , I paid for it in full , (my mistake) , still no word when or if it will be done . I haven't been able to reach him by phone or email . If any one knows any other way to get in touch with him , or lives close enough that can go by his place please let me know . As of July 6 2015 this "legend" is still insisting that he is honest and will be sending the front ends out to every one that has ordered from him . Please do not trust this man or give him any money unless you have the part in hand and are satisfied with it . He is a thief .

ElekVins
07-08-2014, 4:37 PM
Very sorry for you.
Use the search fonction, several members had similar issues with him

farmall
07-08-2014, 4:47 PM
Hope you used a credit card. (Fuck any business which won't take them.)

File a chargeback ASAP.

BullyGuns
07-08-2014, 6:20 PM
I've seen this same thread for bunches of years. Bad business. Sorry.

C

WingNut
07-09-2014, 4:37 AM
Deja Vu.

fuck that guy

Smiley
07-09-2014, 12:33 PM
Well I for one wouldn't say 'fuck the guy' until I did a little research. Freddie has had some very serious health problems going back to 2005 and that he can do anything nowadays is pretty amazing but some of my friends have got products from him just a few weeks ago so somebody is still in the shop (which is his house by the way). If you've got an issue then have somebody go and knock on the door as that's how most of us handle issues like this. Posting words won't get you anywhere. This guy is a legend and he deserves a little better treatment until you have eyes on the scene. I don't think he or his associates will have any problem with refunding money if you show up. If you would have done your homework you'd have known that Fred was 'slow' in getting products out the door. I personally would happily wait a year or more for a Springer with his name on it.

farmall
07-09-2014, 4:39 PM
I don't think he or his associates will have any problem with refunding money if you show up.

OP is in NY so that's a bit much. A modern business should issue a refund instantly via credit card or other electronic transfer, not requiring some personal visit bullshit. What nonsense is that? This is 2014.
Eyes on the fucking scene? What's next, holding the guys dick while he takes a leak?

The ETHICAL thing to do if you can't make parts or sub them out or train a functional helper is not to take money for customers without WARNING customers that you are unreliable due to (whatever) problems.

If there is a subcontractor problem for parts that's not the customers fault but it certainly does reflect poor management on the producer end. Switch subs to someone who will deliver the goods.
It's not different than handing any other job to a machine and fab shop, and excuses wouldn't cut it in a business-to-business transaction.



If you would have done your homework you'd have known that Fred was 'slow' in getting products out the door.

"Fred" mysteriously failed to warn the customer. That's deliberate deception, it's bullshit and poor health is no excuse for omitting the truth up front.

A shop can produce on time or they cannot.

Smiley
07-10-2014, 6:10 AM
Fred has talked about his 'issues' in several interviews and it's been discussed countless times on almost all of the boards so I don't think his 'slow' response time is any kind of a secret and as to visiting the house most of us have friends on each coast. Building handmade chopper stuff is no way 'modern business', it's all cottage industry and a lot of shops don't use plastic to begin with. What you're describing is the type of business you'd expect from the bolt-on or mass-produced industry. I've know people waiting a year for custom work from a variety of other makers so 6-months isn't all that unusual. It does seem like they're still talking on the phone so maybe he'll get his forks or his money back if he can't wait.

farmall
07-10-2014, 10:22 AM
Complexity used to be an excuse but now anyone with a smartphone and a card reader can receive payments. They can offer a "discount" for non-CC orders instead of charging extra which pisses off CC issuers.
That's very common because it's profitable.

I'm old too. Those customs held water 20 years ago. That they were maintained by some out of grumpy resistance to doing anything different isn't a positive, and though he's unlikely to change maybe some other fellow will read this thread and adapt saving hassle all round.

The object of business is to get paid. The object of protected transactions is not to get fucked. Grownups do honest business and are ALWAYS direct about it. That builds positive community rep you can't buy and....helps make more money.

http://www.businessbee.com/resources/profitability/point-of-sale/the-5-best-mobile-credit-card-reader-apps-for-your-small-business/

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/square-vs-intuit-gopayment-vs-paypal-here-mobile-credit-card-processors/

I accept that particular gentleman is Jesus risen so none of the above observations apply to him, customers should be grateful that ANYONE discusses the issues so they have an opportunity to know about them, that in this case they should rejoice about having an unprotected transaction, and that when you are a special snowflake even in the modern world you don't need to be explicit about the reality of buying from you because stuff.

This post is more for others considering doing small business work or buying from one.

One industry which relies on pleasant buying experiences:

http://johntv.com/prostitution-theres-an-app-for-that/

There are many very, very old people who take CC, PayPal, etc and so forth quite profitably. Even retired Gran and Gramps now routinely use phones and tablets to keep in touch with their family and friend network.

"Cottage industry" is a code word for "just another small business".

When you give someone money in advance with zero leverage they have no incentive to finish the job on time. It's psychological and applies even to nice people. OTOH when they await complete payment (a deposit is reasonable for bespoke work so the fabricator don't get stuck with a large material and subcontracting bill) there is actual financial pressure to finish the job.

Of course some things take time. For example I've bought four stainless apes from Front Street Cycle. I was protected by PayPal so sending money in full was cool because I'm fine with a protected transaction and the PayPal and Ebay feedback/resolution processes, owner was a prompt communicator via email (email rocks for businesses because playing phone tag interrupts production), and I understand seasonal backlog. What I got was to agreed spec and nicely TIGed. I'll be buying more FSC bars from Craig. By his Facebook pic he ain't young and of course FSC is a "cottage industry" business, but he "gets" using tech to interact with customers.

Got a year wait time? What does it cost to say so upfront and PRECISELY why should a customer need to find out details from someone else?

You can always pad the estimated completion time in your favor so you can safely deliver earlier:



Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Look, Mr. Scott, I'd love to explain everything to you, but the Captain wants this spectrographic analysis done by 1300 hours.
[La Forge goes back to work; Scotty follows slowly]
Scotty: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. But the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Yeah, well, I told the Captain I'd have this analysis done in an hour.
Scotty: How long will it really take?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: An hour!
Scotty: Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would *really* take, did ya?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Well, of course I did.
Scotty: Oh, laddie. You've got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker.

seaking
07-10-2014, 1:05 PM
So Craig got his shit together? That's good to know, it's nice stuff.

tomahawk1976
07-10-2014, 6:57 PM
Jesus Christ Smiley....Smiley Hernandez by any chance? I think Freddy makes real nice shit...I don't think he is trying to rip anybody off, but he is a terrible businessman--plain and simple...end of story

ScarTissue
07-15-2014, 9:11 PM
I don't think he is trying to rip anybody off, but he is a terrible businessman--plain and simple...end of story

I've noticed a lot of real old-timey motorcycle wizards are like that...

53rigid
07-16-2014, 6:50 AM
I've noticed a lot of real old-timey motorcycle wizards are like that...

I do not give a shit how old the business owner is. It is plain shitty to NOT set expectations up front on how long it will take to make a part, fix a bike, paint a tank. You get the idea. The smart guys tell the customer it will take "x" amount of time and then beat that by getting it done sooner. And if it is not done in time, you better give me a very good excuse or cut me a deal. It is a shame that more businesses do not get that concept anymore.

ScarTissue
07-16-2014, 7:53 AM
I do not give a shit how old the business owner is. It is plain shitty to NOT set expectations up front on how long it will take to make a part, fix a bike, paint a tank. You get the idea. The smart guys tell the customer it will take "x" amount of time and then beat that by getting it done sooner. And if it is not done in time, you better give me a very good excuse or cut me a deal. It is a shame that more businesses do not get that concept anymore.

I wasn't saying he's old and that makes it okay, I'm saying a lot of the OG chopper guys are just terrible businessmen and more than likely aren't consciously trying to rip people off. But, the customer is always right.

Smiley
07-23-2014, 9:41 AM
Wilroh, did you ever get your front-end? We're having a guy go by this weekend to pick up some forks and will push the issue for you if you're still having problems. That looks like another set of Freddie's forks on the bike in your profile picture so I can see why you like his work.

Wilroh
07-24-2014, 1:33 AM
No I still haven't gotten the front end . Yes that is one of his narrow springers , I love the mans work , thats why I ordered another one . I really don't want to bad mouth anyone or get anyone pissed off , I wanted to see if anyone has had any problems getting his parts . I am willing to wait to get it , just want to make sure I will get it . Its going on 7 months now . If you don't mind maybe you can have your guy ask him how he is doing on it , and if he thinks it may be ready soon . Thanks .

750Commando
09-18-2014, 3:34 PM
I don't care health issues or not I ordered a rigid frame a year ago and all kinds of messed up neck was too short, no brace bar on front down pipes and more. He won't reply and now I have a giant $1200 paper weight. Refund money he doesn't even do that I asked for one. Knocking on door a little hard from Illinois. I thought the same thing having a legend build my frame but after the treatment I received I will use my words and post as much as I can so no one else gets fucked. He said he would make me a new one that was 6 months ago. He is a con artist plain and simple. He thinks you will just give up and quit fighting to get what you want fixed its bs. I email, call and text every week and get get oh one more week or oh my jig is not free ECT

seaking
09-18-2014, 4:35 PM
I've noticed a lot of real old-timey motorcycle wizards are like that...

You mean slimey motherfuckers? I don't care if you're wheeled around in a cart. It doesn't give you an excuse to rip people off.

750Commando I know someone in SW Michigan (an hour and a half, two hours from Chicago) if you want to have it straightened out.

RedemptionMotorcycles
09-19-2014, 12:58 PM
Be Patient and you'll get it. PM me and I'll give you an email of a buddy who is close to him. Maybe he can get you in touch with Freddie. He is a legend and much of the current style of choppers is due to his input. I have an incredible frame from him and the quality is superb. Yeah, he's getting old. Get your orders in before he can't build them anymore. Then try to get one for 1200...

seaking
09-19-2014, 2:10 PM
Be Patient and you'll get it. PM me and I'll give you an email of a buddy who is close to him. Maybe he can get you in touch with Freddie. He is a legend and much of the current style of choppers is due to his input. I have an incredible frame from him and the quality is superb. Yeah, he's getting old. Get your orders in before he can't build them anymore. Then try to get one for 1200...

then maybe ya'll can get off your knees.

demondog05
10-02-2014, 11:15 AM
Ordered mine in March 2014. I did get a response from Fred to my email last week saying he was sorry that it is taking so long and that he was getting it all together now. Since I am deployed right now I am not too much in a hurry as I wont be home until Dec. However, I sure would like to know if it was shipped already. I am patient but its going on 6 months now from the 5 weeks he originally told me. I dont doubt that I will get it I just hope it is worth the wait.

nk14zp
10-02-2014, 4:50 PM
Ordered mine in March 2014. I did get a response from Fred to my email last week saying he was sorry that it is taking so long and that he was getting it all together now. Since I am deployed right now I am not too much in a hurry as I wont be home until Dec. However, I sure would like to know if it was shipped already. I am patient but its going on 6 months now from the 5 weeks he originally told me. I dont doubt that I will get it I just hope it is worth the wait.


NO excuse for 5 weeks to go for 6 months with out updates.

Jetblack
10-05-2014, 8:29 AM
shit the first bike I bought in the summer of 87 or 88, had to stay at the grey beards place because, he wanted to replace the petcock on it and wouldn't let it out the fucking door til he did. So I take my ass home and sit and sit and wait and wait... 2 fucking months later yer bike's ready, I swear he probably added a week on purpose every time I called to teach my young ass some patience.

The reason I say this is he was you know that headlight didn't pass dot when it hit the states... maybe it should stay here so's I can replace that, you'll wanna be able to see at night. I said fuck the dot I have real good eyes sir... he got a good laugh out of that and dropped the keys in my hand. You know the anticipation had built up sooooo much to get that bastard and ride. It was killing waiting, but I've loved bikes ever since and the smile that was on my face the rest of what summer was left? Couldn't even be wiped off my face with concrete.

Of course this is just a story of my experience with one grey beard and how slooooooooow they can be, especially if they wanna do it right and are a true artisan.

Shacknasty
10-06-2014, 1:16 AM
Two months to replace a petcock?!! You live in a different world than I do...

Jetblack
10-06-2014, 2:23 AM
what can I say? it was a different time, few around here were into bikes, no internet, and there wasn't a bike shop on every corner... we had a Honda dealership that sold / ordered everything else, and he was the only fix it / used bike shop, just a old grizzled temperamental Harley rider buried ass to armpits in work.

demondog05
10-12-2014, 7:38 AM
Have you received your front end yet Wilroh?

demondog05
10-14-2014, 11:05 AM
Has anyone had any experience with Freddy Hernandez (Freds Frames) of Rialto Ca. ? I have had a springer front end ordered since Jan. this year , still no word when it will be done . I'm concerned whether its just a long time to get the parts he needs to build them (his explanation) or that I'm screwed .

I dont know how for sure this is but I just got another email stating my springer will be shipped at the end of the week! I guess I will have to wait and see.

Wilroh
10-30-2014, 12:45 AM
No , I still haven't recieved it and no word yet , please let me know if you get yours and any other contact information you can give me , I would really appreciate it , I do still hope to get one of his springers . Thanks . Good luck !

demondog05
10-30-2014, 1:52 PM
No , I still haven't recieved it and no word yet , please let me know if you get yours and any other contact information you can give me , I would really appreciate it , I do still hope to get one of his springers . Thanks . Good luck !

Now I got another email saying that it will ship next week. This is after I called and left a message then followed up with and email requesting an update. I guess I will continue to wait another week.

Wilroh
10-30-2014, 2:01 PM
Let me know what happens , thanks .

ramblingshaman
01-02-2015, 4:09 AM
Man this is super disappointing reading this. Hope everyone gets their stuff. I was gonna place an order with him but after reading this I'll most likely go elsewhere. Any suggestions on where to go for a quality springer front end?

ScarTissue
01-02-2015, 6:21 AM
Man this is super disappointing reading this. Hope everyone gets their stuff. I was gonna place an order with him but after reading this I'll most likely go elsewhere. Any suggestions on where to go for a quality springer front end?

Sugar Bear, Chopperswapper, ChopCult classifieds.

ramblingshaman
01-02-2015, 2:10 PM
Sugar Bear, Chopperswapper, ChopCult classifieds.

Yeah as soon as I clicked post reply I figured this question was already asked. Found what I was looking for. Thanks anyway.

tomahawk1976
01-03-2015, 8:41 AM
Its not fucking brain surgery or rocket science. When it comes down to it, its bending and welding steel together. Yeah...its an art form, no...I can't do it, but there are a ton of talented builders to choose from. Cross this guy off your list. I like his stuff ( a lot) I have talked to him before...nice guy. I wouldn't send him lunch money

bobscogin
01-03-2015, 9:53 AM
Its not fucking brain surgery or rocket science. When it comes down to it, its bending and welding steel together. Yeah...its an art form,

"Art form"--Therein lies the problem. Many "artist" operate only within the hemisphere of their brain where that talent resides. The other hemisphere -- where awareness of schedule, business ethics, and customer service resides -- stays mostly unemployed.

Bob

tomahawk1976
01-03-2015, 12:08 PM
You're right, and who the hell am I to piss on his dreams. Go ahead and order one and hope for the best. I love his work and if its a long term project and you actually do get your item, I'm sure you will love it. Good luck

Wilroh
01-04-2015, 1:41 AM
Still no springer , I wouldn't pay for anything unless you have the part in hand , I learned an expensive lesson .

Wilroh
01-04-2015, 1:42 AM
Sugarbear or Acme look similar to Freds .

Cisco726
01-04-2015, 2:24 AM
Are you still in contact with him? Did he just completely disappear?

Wilroh
01-04-2015, 4:16 PM
Haven't had any contact with him in months , a guy by the name of Benny has been the only contact I have made recently . He is supposedly working for Fred and has been connected with 807 Customs Inc. in Rialto . He has emailed me and keeps making promises to send it , but still haven't seen any frontend .

farmall
01-04-2015, 6:18 PM
"Art form"--Therein lies the problem. Many "artist" operate only within the hemisphere of their brain where that talent resides. The other hemisphere -- where awareness of schedule, business ethics, and customer service resides -- stays mostly unemployed.

Many of them are also dickheads, a very common human condition which in no way excludes artistic talent, mechanical skill, or business acumen and may complement those qualities.

Wilroh
01-05-2015, 1:36 AM
This is very true !

Smiley
01-05-2015, 2:51 PM
I just got off the phone with Freddie and there are parts of the 'stories' posted here that aren't necessarily the 'whole' story so I'm not to sure why people can't get in touch with him as it was easy for me to do today. In fact I've never had a problem getting in touch with him or one of his shop guys.

seaking
01-05-2015, 3:09 PM
Many of them are also dickheads, a very common human condition which in no way excludes artistic talent, mechanical skill, or business acumen and may complement those qualities.

it's simple trig and shop time, not art.

Wilroh
01-05-2015, 3:43 PM
Smiley , if you can get in touch with him so easily , can you call him and ask him if he will send my springer to me or at least call me . He does not answer my calls or emails , and this has been going on for very close to a year . I am out $1,200 dollars if he doesn't come through with the part and I'll have to spend more with some one else cause I still have no frontend on my bike .

bobscogin
01-05-2015, 7:53 PM
it's simple trig and shop time, not art.

Viewed objectively, and with a rational mind, I agree 100%. The problem with the motorcycle "artist" is that all it takes is one little write up in a chopper rag, or some notoriety on the internet, and they become legends in their own minds who believe their own press. As self proclaimed artist, they think that everyone should be honored to wait, and wait, and wait for the privilege of owning their rare and precious work. The wait just enhances the exclusivity, but of course y'all knew that when you sent the money in, right?

Bob

Smiley
01-06-2015, 7:28 AM
Bill, I did try to ask about your forks but he told me he's doesn't talk about projects except with the person who ordered the part. He did mention that some people, not necessarily you, but people in general, only send him a deposit and he simply won't do any work unless he's paid up-front in full. Seems weird to me, but I do know folks who have ordered his stuff and had to do that. Also know folks who have ordered frames and forks long after you did and got their parts in a timely fashion. I'm not trying to be a smartass but try calling him from a different phone so they can't see your caller ID. When I called some kid answered and when I asked for Freddie he came right to the phone.
As to why people buy forks from noted builders it primarily because of the quality and the fact that the product holds it value over time. None of these guys are very fast at filling orders. I have friends who have waited 7-months for Sugar Bear and 6-months for Mondo (9-months in one case).

Wood
01-06-2015, 7:43 AM
As far as not doing a part until paid for in full I get that. All this stuff is one off's and may not fit much else etc,,,, Now with that said I think the way this SHOULD have been handled is:
Buyer "Hey I want to buy a springer"
Seller "Ok my lead time is 6 months and the job should take a month"
Buyer "I can live with that"
Seller "Ok I need a % deposit to hold your place in my schedule, When I am ready to start I'll call you and I need full payment before we begin"

KevinN
01-06-2015, 11:37 AM
As far as not doing a part until paid for in full I get that. All this stuff is one off's and may not fit much else etc,,,, Now with that said I think the way this SHOULD have been handled is:
Buyer "Hey I want to buy a springer"
Seller "Ok my lead time is 6 months and the job should take a month"
Buyer "I can live with that"
Seller "Ok I need a % deposit to hold your place in my schedule, When I am ready to start I'll call you and I need full payment before we begin"
Well said. I feel bad for anybody that throws down the money for a custom part and have the "artist" flake on them constantly. If you know up front that the "artist" is a flake on business practices then you can decide if you want that pain or not. Communication is paramount in business and with all the ways we have to communicate now no one can convince me that the "artist" isn't getting your messages. Sorry, I come to this thread for entertainment and Fred is doing a good job of keeping me entertained. Hope the OP gets his springer before he has to switch to a Tri Glide.

Smiley
01-06-2015, 11:55 AM
Maybe we need a thread about dealing with 'artists'. I remember several threads at a variety of boards over the years about problems with John Harman, Sugar Bear, Mondo, Jeri, Billy lane, Indian Larry and a host of others including good old JJ himself. Dick Allen simply wouldn't do anything for you unless he liked you and even then you might have to wait a year for something you ordered. None of these guys build just one thing. Most are building forks, frames and even complete bikes so it's not like they have a lot of time to spread around in the first place. Most also do the shows, swap meets, runs and rally's so they're not always chained to the welding bench and few of them have 'helpers' that actually do the real work. In fact I'd be really pissed if I found out that some 'artist' had my parts made by some guy in the shop. You're right that communication is the key and even a flaky guy can pick up the phone or send an email in between beer runs. Also it's a good idea not to order from an 'artist' of any kind unless you live close by or have a friend who lives near the 'art studio'. The other alternative is just to buy something from Paughco or a similar outlet but who wants to do that for a custom bike they're building.

Smiley
01-06-2015, 12:11 PM
It just occurred to me that a lot of visitors who read this thread may not even know who Freddie Hernandez is. He is pretty much a living legend in the overall scheme of things in the chopper industry, if there is such as thing as an industry in this business. I'm not a big fan of his particular style but I respect his skill and accomplishments over the past decades. If it weren't for Freddie then Denver's Choppers would have been just a listing in a phone book. That's not to take anything away from Mullins but Freddie is the guy who did the work at the shop. Freddie is also very likely the last survivor of the guys who built the chopper craze back in the sixties and early seventies. Considering his lifestyle it's actually pretty surprising that he's still alive. Ironically there was a rumor going around a few years ago that he was dead and all the work was being done by some guys working out of somebodies garage. For the right project I'd wait a year for something he built just so I could say he built it for me but I'm in this for the long haul and I understand other peoples schedules. Just hoping folks will do a little research about his history and understand why his work is a little above the ordinary. It's not just some bending and welding as somebody mentioned. I could probably train a monkey to do that.

seaking
01-06-2015, 1:27 PM
That's fine and dandy if you want to buy parts off him and opine about them being built by freddie, and you should expect to wait accordingly. I know who he is and what he's built and done; I'm just not willing to give him my hard earned money then cup his nuts in one hand and spread my cheeks with the other.

In all reality, if you can't find someone to build you what you want for a reasonable amount of money--in the time you expect it to be done, you aren't looking hard enough.

Smiley
01-07-2015, 12:49 PM
I probably should have worded that better. Freddie and most other 'artist' do a pretty good job of getting work out the door about 90% of the time. As I said I have friends who've had no problems with scheduling but I'd be willing to be in that 10% if I had to be, but I wouldn't want to be. You'd be surprised at the volume of work some of these guys do so I'm surprised they don't actually take longer than they do on orders that don't have problems. There are plenty of other guys building stuff so that's not the issue here and Bill's already paid his dues so he's owed some consideration from Freddie and a thread like this hopefully helps to get him that. Everybody has the right to buy from whomever they choose. It has nothing to do with cupping some guys nuts and bending over.

jethro57
01-07-2015, 2:39 PM
paying someone else to do anything that you should be doing yourself is bending over and spreading your cheeks, acquire some skills other than bitching like a menstrating wife

Wilroh
01-07-2015, 6:00 PM
And I suppose you could build a springer as good as one from Freddie Henandez ? All I would like is my springer or my money , not your remarks .

jethro57
01-07-2015, 6:40 PM
And I suppose you could build a springer as good as one from Freddie Henandez ? All I would like is my springer or my money , not your remarks .

I did not mention your name, apparantly you may have some internalization issues, whatever
http://www.chopperhandbook.com/springbuild.htm
learn something

Smiley
01-07-2015, 7:17 PM
Even the greatest of artist can admire and purchase the works of others. I have no problem buying well made stuff whenever I run across it and I can build a set of forks just as well as Freddie does.

bobscogin
01-07-2015, 9:12 PM
paying someone else to do anything that you should be doing yourself is bending over and spreading your cheeks, acquire some skills other than bitching like a menstrating wife

You seem to be saying that a person who doesn't have the ability or desire to fabricate a product for his own motorcycle should willingly accept incompetent business practices by someone to whom he's sent money, and not have a reason to voice his discontent. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement, but that seems a rather unusual position.

Bob

Wilroh
01-08-2015, 12:48 AM
To jethro57 -I've already read that , I don't WANT to build my own . Apparently you have some stupidity issues . The original question was asking if anyone had similar problems and if they were resolved . Not a question about your menstration cycle .Now can't we all be friends ????????????????????????????

jethro57
01-08-2015, 1:42 AM
again you internalize, I did not mention your name nor was I specifically speaking to you, your apparant issues makes one think there may be more to the original story than has been previously reported, good luck to you sir

Wilroh
01-08-2015, 1:47 AM
Enough of the BS , read the original post , if you can help , try to do so if not , Thank you for your comments .

Wilroh
01-08-2015, 2:07 AM
Jethro57,did you learn a new word ?