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sixball
01-01-2013, 8:06 AM
A freind came by the shop the other day while I was placing a McMastercarr order and asked what the Grade 9 bolts I was getting were for. I always use them for riser bolts. He argued that Grade 8 or 9 shouldn't be used because they can snap. He says stainless should be used because they would flex before they would snap.

I've never had any riser bolts snap (knock on wood) under any conditions, and I always used grade 8's until I stumbled upon the 9's a year or so ago. Now I had heard that the chrome plated grade 8's have snapped before, but I figgured that was from the chrome plating process comprimising the strength.

Any metalurgist type guys wana chime in and settle this?

Thanks

Sixball

JukeJointGypsy
01-01-2013, 8:21 AM
If you hit something hard enough to break a grade 9 bolt. A broken riser bolt will be the least of your worries.

MIKE47
01-01-2013, 8:50 AM
I think most failed hardware is a direct result if improper torquing or improperly engineering components relying too heavily on the hardware as opposed to the part itself. But in the case of riser bolts you really cant help but use good bolts as they are all you have.

But I can see failure of anything if you have a super out of whack rake number where you are always stressing the bolts just to turn the bike. Or if you are 300 lbs and always tugging on the bars to adjust your ass on the seat. Or you tie the bike down on the trailer by the bars etc.

In reality grade 5 should be enough. 5s hold a lot of suspension parts on cars without failure so 8 should be super overkill already. But harder are more prone to shock failures. Bent bolts are better than snapped ones. The debate could go on forever. I use 8 and have had good results.

bobscogin
01-01-2013, 8:54 AM
Your friend is full of crap. He should read this so as to avoid looking ignorant about fasteners:

http://www.fastenal.com/content/documents/FastenalTechnicalReferenceGuide.pdf

Bob

sixball
01-01-2013, 9:44 AM
Your friend is full of crap. He should read this so as to avoid looking ignorant about fasteners:

http://www.fastenal.com/content/documents/FastenalTechnicalReferenceGuide.pdf

Bob

Thanks for the link, that's alot of reading and info. I read several pages and saved it for future use. I had a local hardware store that carried Lawson's and I used alot of those, I think they were 9's and had a larger head (heavy hex)

The tempering they mentioned might play into the problem with some of the chrome plated fastners snapping. I use stainless on everything except for the crucial stuff as risers, motor mounts, control mounts etc...

Thanks again, that link will come in handy to reference

Sixball

bobscogin
01-01-2013, 11:05 AM
I had a local hardware store that carried Lawson's and I used alot of those, I think they were 9's and had a larger head (heavy hex)


Here's something to keep in mind. SAE does not recognize a "Grade 9" bolt strength category, so there are no industry standards to which it must comply. Bolt manufacturers who offer "Grade 9" bolts are applying their idea of what a bolt stronger than "Grade 8" would be if such a category actually existed so you're buying a pig in a poke. Something to think about, along with the other problem of counterfeit bolt markings from overseas.

Bob

GB
01-01-2013, 11:07 AM
I use stainless on everything except for the crucial stuff as risers, motor mounts, control mounts etc...

l

You are doing it right.

For those who think stainless is always the answer, consider this:

From the Fastenal document, Page 1 Figure 1: "The yield strength is the point at which permanent elongation occurs".

Page A1: Grade 8 bolts have a yield strength of 130,000 psi

Page A4: Stainless bolts have a yield strength of 65,000 psi.

Stainless steel hardware should only be used in non-critical service unless specifically engineered for the application.

sixball
01-01-2013, 11:34 AM
Here's something to keep in mind. SAE does not recognize a "Grade 9" bolt strength category, so there are no industry standards to which it must comply. Bolt manufacturers who offer "Grade 9" bolts are applying there idea of what a bolt stronger than "Grade 8" would be if such a category actually existed so you're buying a pig in a poke. Something to think about, along with the other problem of counterfeit bolt markings from overseas.

Bob

That explains why I couldn't find any tech specs on the 9's anywhere. McMastercarr lists the tensile strength at 180,000 for the 9's, but thats the only numbers I found on them.

Lots of good info here, I appreciate it

Sixball

xl1200s
01-01-2013, 12:19 PM
actually if the risers are aluminum then you need to use stainless if you're hell-bent on steel bolts, so the metals wont react and corrode.

and with proper torquing you could use hollowed aluminum bolts and still pass tech at the track. also the risers (if aluminum) are hollow and drilled for clamp bolts and notched for the bars so... structure issues with handlebars are kinda up to the user. since anything that will cause a handle bar to bend or break will more than likely cause injury so preparing for an impact by using grade bazillion bolts is kinda useless.

however i know some will argue about the vibrations and the jarring of the daily ride so... remember over-torquing and hard bushings are what cause that.

sixball
01-01-2013, 12:31 PM
actually if the risers are aluminum then you need to use stainless if you're hell-bent on steel bolts, so the metals wont react and corrode.

and with proper torquing you could use hollowed aluminum bolts and still pass tech at the track. also the risers (if aluminum) are hollow and drilled for clamp bolts and notched for the bars so... structure issues with handlebars are kinda up to the user. since anything that will cause a handle bar to bend or break will more than likely cause injury so preparing for an impact by using grade bazillion bolts is kinda useless.

however i know some will argue about the vibrations and the jarring of the daily ride so... remember over-torquing and hard bushings are what cause that.

I don't think my bud was talking about them snapping in a accident, obviously with a huge impact alot of things might snap, and your actual saftey is the main concern at that point, not replacing a 4 dollar bolt. The conversation/argument we were having was about everyday use and riding.

Sixball

bobscogin
01-01-2013, 12:55 PM
actually if the risers are aluminum then you need to use stainless if you're hell-bent on steel bolts, so the metals wont react and corrode.


That's not an issue in this application. I'm not aware of any motorcycle manufacturers, Harley included, that attach aluminum risers with stainless bolts. If corrosion is a concern, a film of anti-sieze compound on the threads will alleviate your fears.

Bob

xl1200s
01-01-2013, 12:57 PM
however i know some will argue about the vibrations and the jarring of the daily ride so... remember over-torquing and hard bushings are what cause that.

right, i am aware. so, i addressed that already!

your bike is yours. i was just offering some trade advise. take it or leave it.

xl1200s
01-01-2013, 1:03 PM
That's not an issue in this application. I'm not aware of any motorcycle manufacturers, Harley included, that attach aluminum risers with stainless bolts. If corrosion is a concern, a film of anti-sieze compound on the threads will alleviate your fears.

Bob

yeah you're right. but most stock hardware is that ugly coated (not sure but looks like galvanized) nasty junk that u cant just go get from Lowe's.

but who am i to offer any knowledge. yall already got it all figured out.

sixball
01-01-2013, 1:04 PM
right, i am aware. so, i addressed that already!

your bike is yours. i was just offering some trade advise. take it or leave it.

Wow, I was agreeing with you, and when I said argument/conversation, I was refering to my original argument/conversation with my friend that came over.

Didn't mean to piss you off.......

Wow


Sixball

sixball
01-01-2013, 1:10 PM
yeah you're right. but most stock hardware is that ugly coated (not sure but looks like galvanized) nasty junk that u cant just go get from Lowe's.

but who am i to offer any knowledge. yall already got it all figured out.

It's zinc yellow-chromate plating for added rust resistance, thats what is on the Grade 8 bolts you buy at Lowes. You can also get some ultra corosion resisant grade 8 bolts from McMastercarr that are grey in color. I use those for motor mount bolts since they are exposed,

Usually on the riser bolts that I use that are the zinc yellow-chromate color, I sand the yellow off the exposed head, make it shiny, and hit it with some clear fingernail polish once tourqued down.

Sixball

xl1200s
01-01-2013, 1:21 PM
yeah those alodine looking ones polish up badass and i use them on my street vehicles too when i need some strength and looks.

GB
01-01-2013, 1:45 PM
In any case...

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/GrinderBill/2013%20January/IMG_04861_zps447fc628.jpg

I bought a set of 4" aluminum risers from J&P; they are tapped 1/2-13 with about 1" of bolt thread holding them. I'm not impressed. Anyone have or ever heard of issues using them? I'm considering modifying them to take a 6" socket head from the top down.

sixball
01-01-2013, 1:53 PM
In any case...

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/GrinderBill/2013%20January/IMG_04861_zps447fc628.jpg

I bought a set of 4" aluminum risers from J&P; they are tapped 1/2-13 with about 1" of bolt thread holding them. I'm not impressed. Anyone have or ever heard of issues using them? I'm considering modifying them to take a 6" socket head from the top down.

Now I have seen those break, or atleast seen them after the break. I've never run any of those personally. Not a good design if you ask me.

Sixball

GB
01-01-2013, 2:01 PM
Now I have seen those break, or atleast seen them after the break. I've never run any of those personally. Not a good design if you ask me.

Sixball

Threaded aluminum risers... man that just don't sound right. But when you see 'Roland Sands' putting them out, gotta figure the lawyers have signed off on it...

kawijake
01-02-2013, 5:00 AM
I agree with above. I bought grade 8 bolts that were 7 inches long for my risers that thread in from the top into a dna springer. Thats a lot of distance from bolt head to mating surface. Hardtail, all that. No issues. Thats for a set of 6 inch risers. As said above, if you break a 1/2"-13 grade 8 bolt the risers are the least of your worries.

lousassol
01-29-2014, 3:28 AM
Your friend is full of crap. He should read this so as to avoid looking ignorant about fasteners:

http://www.fastenal.com/content/documents/FastenalTechnicalReferenceGuide.pdf

Bob
good read

3tc
01-29-2014, 7:30 AM
In any case...

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/GrinderBill/2013%20January/IMG_04861_zps447fc628.jpg

I bought a set of 4" aluminum risers from J&P; they are tapped 1/2-13 with about 1" of bolt thread holding them. I'm not impressed. Anyone have or ever heard of issues using them? I'm considering modifying them to take a 6" socket head from the top down.



Grade 8 is what is used on most oem flywheel applications in automotive.way more than enough for riser.
1/2x 13 with a 1" hole is twice the hole needed..only the first six threads of fine and first 5 of coarse thread bolts take the load.some dont count the first two as threads because they may not be machined as excat as the rest...
dont believe me look it up

BuddhahoodVato
01-29-2014, 9:03 AM
You are doing it right.

For those who think stainless is always the answer, consider this:

From the Fastenal document, Page 1 Figure 1: "The yield strength is the point at which permanent elongation occurs".

Page A1: Grade 8 bolts have a yield strength of 130,000 psi

Page A4: Stainless bolts have a yield strength of 65,000 psi.

Stainless steel hardware should only be used in non-critical service unless specifically engineered for the application.

man Glad I stumbled on this article/debate/discourse on bolts, "8"s are my choice always.
Learned a lot about the bolts dealioo, gracias to all who chimed in.

BuddhahoodVato
01-29-2014, 9:05 AM
Grade 8 is what is used on most oem flywheel applications in automotive.way more than enough for riser.
1/2x 13 with a 1" hole is twice the hole needed..only the first six threads of fine and first 5 of coarse thread bolts take the load.some dont count the first two as threads because they may not be machined as excat as the rest...
dont believe me look it up

You buy from JP, insane. reevalute your buying prowness, JP's no beuno.

DustyDave
01-29-2014, 11:13 AM
Where shock-loading and sudden failure is an issue most engineers avoid anything over a grade five. I know that federal law and our engineers wouldn't allow a grade 8 in bridge cranes and man lifting devices. More softer bolts is the rule because they don't fail totally without warning. I suspect this is what he is referring to. I don't think that even if you dropped it off a building the loading is anywhere neat bolt strength on these so it shouldn't matter. But someone will eventually see how much they can overload a crane and a bunch of stretched loose bolts is preferable to sudden failure.
Dusty

farmall
01-29-2014, 1:55 PM
Tapped aluminum risers have been around a long time, but I have no reason to use them vs a stronger through-bolted design where I can use metal or fiber insert locknuts (there is a reason NASA and the aviation industry doesn't use lock washers, they don't do much good) instead of shit aluminum threads. When I run into used tapped risers they go in the scrap bin. No worries about splitting them, but I don't like stripped threads or what is in effect an aluminum nut.

Since I prefer chimp/ape hangers for comfort I replaced most of my riser/bar setups with riserless stainless bars (I hate pitted chrome) and got rid of bar slippage. I also have a set of Biltwell stainless risers with stainless bars where I tack welded the bars to the risers on the inboard sides only. No slippage of course, and if I bend the bar I can just remove the riser caps, twist 'em off by hand, then weld them to the next set of bars.

3tc
01-29-2014, 9:11 PM
You buy from JP, insane. reevalute your buying prowness, JP's no beuno.

Nope nvr bought from jp.
Matter of fact in regards to risers ive used soley ones made by for many years.they all happen to have been made from aluminum turned down by me using 1/2x13 bolts and 1/4 20 for the clamps. on occasion the hardware turned by me just cause i could .i have always ran apes untill recently when i began runnin some nomads made by steffan.between my bolt heads and risers are and always have been aluminum solid riser bushings also made by me..i never gave any thought or care to the grade of hardwear i used with them because i know the stress required to break them would only occour if i were to wreck in witch case i have other shit to worry about.trust me or not but yall are way overthinking this shit.
Been called crazy many times.
JnP??Really?ya get better deals from the local chicken heads.comon hermano u know that much
to the op.u dont need a need any thing than an intro to machening book that coves hardware.serioulsy nuttin fancy about this..ure friend is really just uneducated and erroring on the side of saftey.its not his fault .blame public education.they taught me how to spell.n ya c what that got me

xllance
01-30-2014, 5:32 AM
Nope nvr bought from jp.
Matter of fact in regards to risers ive used soley ones made by for many years.they all happen to have been made from aluminum turned down by me using 1/2x13 bolts and 1/4 20 for the clamps. on occasion the hardware turned by me just cause i could .i have always ran apes untill recently when i began runnin some nomads made by steffan.between my bolt heads and risers are and always have been aluminum solid riser bushings also made by me..i never gave any thought or care to the grade of hardwear i used with them because i know the stress required to break them would only occour if i were to wreck in witch case i have other shit to worry about.trust me or not but yall are way overthinking this shit.
Been called crazy many times.
JnP??Really?ya get better deals from the local chicken heads.comon hermano u know that much
to the op.u dont need a need any thing than an intro to machening book that coves hardware.serioulsy nuttin fancy about this..ure friend is really just uneducated and erroring on the side of saftey.its not his fault .blame public education.they taught me how to spell.n ya c what that got me

eWE misspelde fawlt

Acosi151
01-30-2014, 7:08 AM
To put it in perspective, the rear shocks on most swing arm Harleys are retained by a single Grade 5 1/2-20 fine thread bolt from the factory. Think of how much "shear" and "shock" load these things get. Anything other than "no grade" hardware store bin crap is more than adequate for handlebars.

The chart I have on my desk shows:
Grade 5 1/2-13 10,472lbs Yield Shear (bend) and 13,659lbs Ultimate Shear (break) (3,187 diff)
Grade 8 1/2-13 14,797lbs Yield Shear (bend) and 17,074lbs Ultimate Shear (break) (2,250 diff)

So in theory the grade 5 gives you almost a thousand more pounds of "warning" before it breaks... but it's just that, theory. If your handlebar bolts experience this type of force you've got other issues.

YeaItsSlo
01-30-2014, 7:24 PM
My friend drills the bolts out and runs wires through them. I wouldn't worry.

punkrod
01-31-2014, 12:28 PM
actually if the risers are aluminum then you need to use stainless if you're hell-bent on steel bolts, so the metals wont react and corrode.
.

NEVER EVER use stainless steel bolts with aluminum threads. Always use zinc or cadmium plated bolts in aluminum, especially for anything structural, (dry). Goes double if you live in an area with salty air, (near the ocean). Grade 5 is fine for risers, Grade 8 is better.
If you must have stainless in aluminum, use anti-seize but only for non-structural stuff like engine covers etc.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m32/JunkyardCars/misc/GalvanicCorrosion.jpg

IndustrialPartsHouse
01-31-2014, 11:10 PM
Grade 8 is more enough. A little more reading. Summarized, but fasteners can get technical really quick. If I can be of any help, just say the word.
http://industrialpartshouse.blogspot.com/2013/12/fastener-101-basics-of-threaded.html

klondikekid64
01-31-2014, 11:38 PM
A freind came by the shop the other day while I was placing a McMastercarr order and asked what the Grade 9 bolts I was getting were for. I always use them for riser bolts. He argued that Grade 8 or 9 shouldn't be used because they can snap. He says stainless should be used because they would flex before they would snap.

I've never had any riser bolts snap (knock on wood) under any conditions, and I always used grade 8's until I stumbled upon the 9's a year or so ago. Now I had heard that the chrome plated grade 8's have snapped before, but I figgured that was from the chrome plating process comprimising the strength.

Any metalurgist type guys wana chime in and settle this?

Thanks

Sixball

I've worked for chrome plating shops for 20 plus years and I've heard people say that chrome plating affects metal eg. weakening bolts etc. don't know where that comes from but not so. maybe people have had weakened metal parts from over polishing, grinding out pits / rust etc. making the metal thin, and or possibly over heating and losing temper doing the same thing. Plating is just elec. current being used to attract plating to the part, the tanks aren't that hot, you can put your hand in it. just wash before you eat, or do any nose / ear mining. p.s. chrome will stain your hands orange for days.

blackmetallicjc
05-15-2015, 2:08 PM
Sorry to bring this thread back but I wanted to get some opinions. Ive decided to replace the HD grade 8 1/4-20 allen bolts on my sportster primary and cam cover with ACE hardware stainless steel allen heads. This doesn't seam to be a structural area at all so Im wondering why HD decided to use Grade 8 on them. Any thoughts?

Grantman
05-15-2015, 11:03 PM
Rushmore, Street, etc, I've given up trying to fathom things HD does that make no sense. Gave me nothing but a big headache. Best advice I ever got for covers of ANY kind (primary, cam, valve, etc) is use a decent (Yes even a Harbor Freight one is "decent") in/lbs click type torque wrench to make sure the bolts are torqued evenly, blue locktite to make sure they stay til you want 'em out, don't use red locktite on your ride except on stuff you want to stay, PERMANENTLY! Red Loctite WON'T come apart without a lot of heat.

farmall
05-16-2015, 5:43 AM
I don't use threaded aluminum risers. Run the through-bolted ones instead which hold the mounting surface in compression.

I switched to two different riser options after years of aluminum risers and won't go back at least for ape hangers.

My favorite is my Biltwell stainless risers with Front Street Cycle stainless bars. I set the angle I wanted then tacked the inside bottom of the bars to the risers with TIG. No slippage, can rotate in a crash, and if I bend the bars
I can manually twist off the risers for use on new bars.

I also have integral welded risers on other Front Street bars (worth the wait, I even bought spares for the future) but I can't adjust the angle on those. Haven't needed to but if I do I'll just grind off the risers and do the Biltwell TIG trick on them too.

I tried pinning (dangerous, stress raiser), epoxy, etc and they don't work long term.

You could weld anti-rotation tabs on the portion of bar under the riser clamp which would work safely but I prefer small tacks to stainless risers instead.

As for bolts, I use stainless which are not super high grade or I use Grade 5 because my bars sure as shit aren't Grade 8 and I want them to yield in a crash anyway.

I do use red Loctite because I want those bolts to stay bolted!

Shovelwitch
05-16-2015, 7:10 AM
I'm a JP gold member and I'm still alive. Loctite the cock out of that shit, torque it, kicker her over and bang gears. Considering all the stress a motor's components have just handling rpms, how can you sleep at night stressing over the integrity of a fucking bolt? If the shit does snap, and you live to tell the tale, at least you'll have a cool story that potentially could get you laid.

some1else
05-16-2015, 9:36 AM
the big problem is itchy nut's

farmall
05-16-2015, 5:42 PM
the big problem is itchy nut's

Easy to fix, the itch is due to lack of heat treatment.

Remove nuts from sack, heat until orange using an acetylene torch, then plunge quickly into a bucket of oil so as to get them below the surface without igniting the oil.

Clean off oil with solvent, then buff your nuts to a pleasing shine using a knotted wire wheel. (Wear eye protection since you don't want this to hurt.)

You will never complain about itchy nuts again.