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motorlou
12-31-2012, 11:16 AM
hey guys I just wanted to ask if it's ok to run copper fuel lines? I guess I just never really payed attention to this subject. I have heard about running a piece of rubber hose on the end of a copper "oil" line to help with vibration but like I said, never really looked at the fuel line thing. anyone?

LinkBelt
12-31-2012, 12:07 PM
I could be wrong here but if my memory serves me, as a youth I remember hearing something about a penny in the gas tank being a problem? So yeah do more research on the subject but I'm wanting to say copper and fuel don't mix. Again I could be wrong.

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motorlou
12-31-2012, 12:37 PM
I could be wrong here but if my memory serves me, as a youth I remember hearing something about a penny in the gas tank being a problem? So yeah do more research on the subject but I'm wanting to say copper and fuel don't mix. Again I could be wrong.

Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2

thought I heard something about copper and fuel as well. not really something I want to dig into just throwing ideas out on the board.

24Cycles
12-31-2012, 1:16 PM
Taken from a question asked regarding a guy using copper line on a dirt bike. He asked the gas companies. Chevron response to copper being used with fuel.

Trace levels of soluble metal compounds, particularly copper, catalyze
the oxidative degradation of gasoline by promoting the formation of gums
and deposits. Metal deactivators overcome this problem by chelating the
metal and rendering it inactive.

Additives are frequently added to gasoline to address oxidative
stability and other issues; they include antioxidants, metal
deactivators, and detergents.

The only negative thing with copper might be that it might act as a
catalyst and cause oxidation.

Probably inorganic copper salts.

Maybe replace the copper fuel lines.

When I asked if copper is any worse than any other metal and if they could quantify the time required to gum up gasoline, they said:

Do not know. Suggest you search the internet.

Link to thread
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/807114-does-copper-react-with-gasoline/

calv
12-31-2012, 1:21 PM
I've got the Billy Lane book "how to build old school bobbers" and he writes a page on using copper oil lines. It shows photos of him installing them (I think the bike is bobzilla). As mentioned above he uses a short length of standard hose as connectors on each end to soak up the vibrations.

I'm planning on using copper lines on my current build.

CaviMike
12-31-2012, 2:07 PM
I've got the Billy Lane book "how to build old school bobbers" and he writes a page on using copper oil lines. It shows photos of him installing them (I think the bike is bobzilla). As mentioned above he uses a short length of standard hose as connectors on each end to soak up the vibrations..

What he probably doesn't realize is that section of rubber isolates the copper from the carburetor and/or tank, inadvertently preventing a galvanic reaction between the copper and other metals. Lots of guys "Just know that it works" but they have absolutely no idea how or why.

motorlou
12-31-2012, 2:19 PM
What he probably doesn't realize is that section of rubber isolates the copper from the carburetor and/or tank, inadvertently preventing a galvanic reaction between the copper and other metals. Lots of guys "Just know that it works" but they have absolutely no idea how or why.

I have heard of the reaction thingy between copper and other metals. plumbing problems

ACXL1K
12-31-2012, 2:22 PM
I've Seen copper tanks...what's the deal there?

bobbarooski
12-31-2012, 2:23 PM
copper gas tank?

Nosebleed
12-31-2012, 2:33 PM
Trevelen from SuperCO used a copper gas tank on a bike that he built several years ago for the Biker Build Off thing, if I'm not mistaken.

Wonder if he bothered asking whether it was a good idea, and whether the tank is still in use today.

some1else
12-31-2012, 2:40 PM
copper gas tank w/attached donut holder....copper is just fine it was used a lot for fuel lines in the past on farm implements and heavy machines usind gas not diesel.why not take a small piece of tubing and stick it in a glass of petrol.watch it for a couple months,these new fuels suck as far as what they destroy.like fiberglass ,rubber,and certain metals.dont use a penny for the test cause they aint solid copper no more and corrode in you;re pocket why not make coins out of plastic ........

LinkBelt
12-31-2012, 2:42 PM
copper gas tank w/attached donut holder....copper is just fine it was used a lot for fuel lines in the past on farm implements and heavy machines usind gas not diesel.why not take a small piece of tubing and stick it in a glass of petrol.watch it for a couple months,these new fuels suck as far as what they destroy.like fiberglass ,rubber,and certain metals.dont use a penny for the test cause they aint solid copper no more and corrode in you;re pocket why not make coins out of plastic ........

A plastic penny just can't taste the same as a 1954 penny.

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CaviMike
12-31-2012, 2:42 PM
Wonder if he bothered asking whether it was a good idea, and whether the tank is still in use today.

That's the most important question.

Most people - and I'm gonna say most of you guys - build your bikes like a fashion statement and you throw any type of reliability to the wind because you know you won't be riding them for long. They're just a passing fad for you, they're not really a part of your soul. The best part is when you all come back and say "I've been doing this for **years" yada yada yada but all I have to ask is this: Are your bikes still running?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Jetblack
12-31-2012, 3:07 PM
That's the most important question.

Most people - and I'm gonna say most of you guys - build your bikes like a fashion statement and you throw any type of reliability to the wind because you know you won't be riding them for long. They're just a passing fad for you, they're not really a part of your soul. The best part is when you all come back and say "I've been doing this for **years" yada yada yada but all I have to ask is this: Are your bikes still running?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Coming from the guy that said "The fuse will limit current"...only if it blows dude; only if it blows.

Run the copper; if you dig it...just tube brush it when you maintain the carbs, or instruct the potential buyer to...as well as try to keep fuel in the lines. Copper oxidation typically happens in the presence of air, aluminum has about an equal reaction; if not worse with, all that white flake shit you can find in bowls after they've dried out.

Not to mention many old carbs have copper and brass tubes molded into the aluminum...I think you're good to go with it.

CaviMike
12-31-2012, 3:20 PM
Coming from the guy that said "The fuse will limit current"...only if it blows dude; only if it blows.

Seriously? That little fuse will heat up when a ton of current is passed through it like when the starter is initially started. Unfortunately when the starter is initially turned on, it's already engaged with the engine and needs as much available current as possible. A fuse will act like a resistor and limit current. This is why starters don't have fuses. There are plenty of 200amp fuses out there but they all will limit that first initial start-up current draw.

See, you're trying to make me sound stupid but you still haven't come up with any actual counter-argument.

CaviMike
12-31-2012, 3:26 PM
Also, brass is an alloy. The zinc in brass completely changes how copper reacts to other metals. That's one of the many benefits of brass.

ACXL1K
12-31-2012, 3:28 PM
Cavi is right, the fuse is a resistor, heat increases resistance and until it does blow, it limits current due to its smaller diameter (gauge- for lck of a better word) as does any increased length of wire, if all other variables are the same.

Jetblack
12-31-2012, 3:31 PM
Seriously? That little fuse will heat up when a ton of current is passed through it like when the starter is initially started. Unfortunately when the starter is initially turned on, it's already engaged with the engine and needs as much available current as possible. A fuse will act like a resistor and limit current. This is why starters don't have fuses. There are plenty of 200amp fuses out there but they all will limit that first initial start-up current draw.

See, you're trying to make me sound stupid but you still haven't come up with any actual counter-argument.

200 amps what are you talking about cars? Most current draw off a cycle starter is under 70 amps...if someone wants to fuse it they can.

Sorry fellas don't mean to derail.

Badassbrutus
12-31-2012, 3:34 PM
When you use copper lines you must have rubber ends I had cooper lines and ran em for a spell .The deal with the rubber end is reduced Harmonic Vibrations.
If you dont use rubber ends the Harmonic Vibrations from the motor vibes Will eventually Crack the copper lines.
I found that out the hard way in the boston tunnel with a cracked oil line wasnt pretty but saved the motor in my 55 Pan at the time.
So I would think the same for fuel lines as well.
Its a must to use the rubber ends....hope this helps ya and shed some light on the Real reason why folks use rubber ends...Harmonic Vibrations are a bitch...lol
I found that Copper Oil burner lines for homes work the best as it wasnt as brittle as the rest of the copper lines Ive found.

CaviMike
12-31-2012, 3:37 PM
200 amps what are you talking about cars? Most current draw off a cycle starter is under 70 amps...if someone wants to fuse it they can.
It's called an exaggeration but at the same time it's very possible a motorcycle could draw that much current when you first hit that button. Once it's spinning it will draw far less but if you limit that initial current, it prolly won't be able to overcome the compression of the engine.

heretic530
12-31-2012, 3:49 PM
On a high compression engine, you do NOT put anything in the line between the starter solenoid and the battery. The largest battery cable on the bike goes from the battery to the solenoid, and the ground should go from the battery to then starter casing, grounding to the frame via the starter casing/transmission.
anything in the line can cause resistance. Volts travel through a fuse unhindered, a large amp load will not.

In fact harley uses a relay to trigger the solenoid so as to completely isolate that circuit.

Jetblack
12-31-2012, 6:26 PM
If you just want the copper look you could run cunifer it's a copper nickel alloy; there's another piping that starts with a "D" that's steel with brazing that looks like copper...it's been too long to remember it off the top of my head. But cunifer is used in marine boating applications and brake lines and is very corrosion resistant...you won't need hose on it either; if I'm recalling it right it has a very good tensile strength.

bwagner
12-31-2012, 6:58 PM
What he probably doesn't realize is that section of rubber isolates the copper from the carburetor and/or tank, inadvertently preventing a galvanic reaction between the copper and other metals. Lots of guys "Just know that it works" but they have absolutely no idea how or why.

Haha!!! That's pretty funny...so his engineering degrees are useless? Billy may be a jackass to some people, but ignorant he is not...His stuff may be quite tacky, even borderline "junky looking" but he's one educated dude, and holds many patents and has come up with plenty of nice innovative stuff over the course of his lifetime thus far. Not trying to start anything, just pointing it out

13clicks
12-31-2012, 8:33 PM
I've seen brass and copper fuel lines leading into brass fuel blocks on hot rods for years... Prob ok to use it without problems.

Jetblack
12-31-2012, 9:13 PM
On a high compression engine, you do NOT put anything in the line between the starter solenoid and the battery. The largest battery cable on the bike goes from the battery to the solenoid, and the ground should go from the battery to then starter casing, grounding to the frame via the starter casing/transmission.
anything in the line can cause resistance. Volts travel through a fuse unhindered, a large amp load will not.

In fact harley uses a relay to trigger the solenoid so as to completely isolate that circuit.

My point was it can be done; should it be done probably not; if the guy wants to fuse it...his choice, if the amp rating for the fuse is matched properly to the circuit rating. The push amps do across the fuse has been accounted for in the rating if the correct fuse is chosen; if not it will blow...I personally think a lot of fuse business is over done, protect a sensitive part or something you'd rather not replace sure...why not? I personally wouldn't fuse a starter, as they take less than 30 minutes to rebuild and are typically rated to handle way more amps than put into them. Custom whatever is ultimately the end users choice...

MercuryMoto67
01-01-2013, 12:15 AM
Holy shit... You guys and your arguing. Slide some rubber fuel hose inside a thin wall copper tube and bend it using a small diameter bender. It's basically just for looks. Done. Work smarter, not harder.

Edit: there is some modern fuel line that is very low profile and thin. I'd use that one.

brooklynbomber
01-01-2013, 12:20 AM
Wait, is this thread about copper lines or about fuses? Tough to tell with all the bitching. Sheesh. Take your arguing to the PMS thread. :banghead:

billdozer
01-01-2013, 12:51 AM
That's the most important question.

Most people - and I'm gonna say most of you guys - build your bikes like a fashion statement and you throw any type of reliability to the wind because you know you won't be riding them for long. They're just a passing fad for you, they're not really a part of your soul. The best part is when you all come back and say "I've been doing this for **years" yada yada yada but all I have to ask is this: Are your bikes still running?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Cavi, if you have some knowledge to share, please do so. We can do without the blanket insults and shitty attitude. You have no idea who's done what or who has soul, so just keep those assumptions to yourself and show some class.

Bandersnatch
01-01-2013, 1:36 AM
That's the most important question.

Most people - and I'm gonna say most of you guys - build your bikes like a fashion statement and you throw any type of reliability to the wind because you know you won't be riding them for long. They're just a passing fad for you, they're not really a part of your soul. The best part is when you all come back and say "I've been doing this for **years" yada yada yada but all I have to ask is this: Are your bikes still running?

Yeah, didn't think so.

LOL.......This isn't entirely BS either.


.
BUT. My bet is CaviMike loves Evos because they're reliable.
Also runs actual "Fuel line" and not that crappy clear stuff that yellows and hardens in a week.
Or Likes "suspension" on a motorcycle.........or at the very least something that handles "drivable".



For some of us........we don't care that 20 over rigid front suspension on a stock rake frame handles sketchy or isn't the "proper" way to set up a chopper.
Or care that a smaller tank means less gas.
Or that Dual carbs aren't the ABSOLUTE BEST POSSIBLE setup.
Or What the numbers our bike can put on the dyno.





Chop Cult.





Now, I'm not doubting facts and science about gas and such, nor am I claiming to be some master bike builder.
So...............
On a useful note......I think VNYGRA ran copper on his buell build for oil lines.....maybe he may have some real world insight as to how well they held up.

Different Strokes and all that

Nottso
01-01-2013, 9:58 AM
I know a little bit about this subject. On some of it my memory is a little sketchy, but I'll try. First is the sketchy part:

I wouldn't worry about galvanic reaction or electrolysis. These are most common in hot water heating systems (I was a Steamfitter in a former life). Galvanic reaction is where the zinc leaves the galvanized part and attaches to the copper. The resulting electrolysis is caused by minute amounts of electrical current (often static due to flow in the system) and causes the big green mess like you see on an old car battery. This often takes years, with continuous flow in the system. Please remember, my memory is a bit short on the above. If I've used less than the perfect terminology, I need not be hammered to death by the engineers amongst you.

This is the more solid info:

If you decide to try and "hard" plumb it, you cannot use flare fittings. The flares will oftentimes crack very quickly due to vibration. This is why auto brake lines and other things are done with steel line and double fares. Compression fittings would be the way to go, but are bigger and more "clunky" looking than flare fittings. As for vibration dampening, this can be accomplished with a "pigtail" in the line. You'll also notice a "pigtail" in a brake line coming off of a car's master cylinder. See pic below (pic for "pigtail" reference only. Disregard the fittings shown).

Summation:

Having run miles and miles of pipe and tubing over my lifetime, I think one could hard plumb fuel line; but If you're okay with the look, run rubber at both ends. It's going to be a helluva lot simpler.

http://caravansplus.com.au/images_tiff/2011/CC-036517s.jpg

bobbarooski
01-01-2013, 10:40 AM
I did it..........Go for it

Flatheadsoup
01-01-2013, 12:18 PM
hey guys I just wanted to ask if it's ok to run copper fuel lines? I guess I just never really payed attention to this subject. I have heard about running a piece of rubber hose on the end of a copper "oil" line to help with vibration but like I said, never really looked at the fuel line thing. anyone?

The simple answer is Yes. A little background, my 51 Ford had copper fuel line between the fuel pump and the carb. It ran fuel for over 60 years, no problem.

I have a copper fuel line on my bobber I built in 08. My concern with the copper line was with vibration. Did a little research and found some seamless copper line @ MacMaster Carr that's used in water coolers. Well water coolers are subjected to almost constant vibration. I also used AN type fitting. So what could go wrong or what the worst thing that can happen, you might catch your pants on fire.

bobbarooski
01-01-2013, 12:30 PM
And there you go...........Just my two cents,what some of us do with certain ideas and metals works for our function and looks.That being said.......do what you want,and if it leaks or fails try a different route,that i think is the deal with making something your own

bigxrdoug
01-02-2013, 2:38 AM
Hell I have been running a copper fuel line and oil lines for 3 years no probs,and yes I run rubber at either ends.

Badassbrutus
01-02-2013, 6:31 AM
I did a pretty coil loop on my ol 55 belive i had 3 coils just like a brake master in a car like described above and it still cracked a few months down the line.Thats just my experiance maybe folks here know of a better copper line than I know of .
I also found out the the more loops you have the heavier it is speacialy with product in the lines causeing more vibes ,I think it has to be supported somehow with numorus loops involved..Like said thats just my experiance with it hopefully more folks will chime in about it..

Demin
01-02-2013, 11:07 AM
Copper gets hard during vibration etc.It's called work hardening.Then becomes brittle.That's another reason for the rubber ends.

Demin
01-02-2013, 11:11 AM
Cavi, if you have some knowledge to share, please do so. We can do without the blanket insults and shitty attitude. You have no idea who's done what or who has soul, so just keep those assumptions to yourself and show some class.

He just likes to argue and insult.He tried telling a guy his Avon tire was on backwards,I went and looked at mine to double check that it was correct and he still argued with me and wanted a pic to prove it.He doesn't like Frisco tanks,so he insults guys running them.....

sixball
01-02-2013, 11:29 AM
I recently got kicked out of the Amish Mafia, so I've been working on a Copper still so I can run some moonshine, to save up money to build a bike for the Discovery Channel.

I posted on a thread about copper oil lines a month or so ago, and it was pointed out that the effect if any would be over the long term, so I researched it further and found that oils, fuels, etc... do react to metals, but in therory it would take a long time for the reaction to effect the fuel or oil, and in a motorcycle application where your only holding (chopper wise) afew gallons of fuel at a time that is constantly moving, and oil that is circulating in a small system, then eventually being changed, the long term effect is almost nill in comparrison to a large displacement piece of machinery that may or may not be in service daily.


Sixball

willythepirate
01-02-2013, 4:36 PM
The rubber hose is to isolate the copper tube from vibration and keep it from work hardening as mentioned above. Putting some loops in the line will help with the work hardening but will probably be insuffcient on a motorcycle if everything is solid mounted.

And fuses protect the wiring not the appliance. Starting systems usually do not have a fuse due to the high inrush current that series wound dc motors produce